The Strength of Leading With Joy

Jon Clifton:
[0:06] Today on Leading with Strengths, I'm with the one and only bestselling author and one of the best thinkers of our time, Deepak Chopra. Deepak, thanks for being with me today.

Deepak Chopra:
[0:16] Thank you, Jon. It's always a privilege to talk to you. And, you know, I'm always so honored to be part of your organization.

Jon Clifton:
[0:24] As we know, you lead with Strategic, Connectedness, Maximizer, Adaptability, and Futuristic. Of those top five, which strength do you feel like you've used the most to be successful throughout your career?

Deepak Chopra:
[0:38] You know, I was looking at the strengths and I find that all those five are very applicable to me. But when I first heard that Strategic was my number one strength, actually, I didn't realize that it was, you know, because I always have at least three or four options whenever there is something going on, when circumstances change, and I never realized that that was one of my traits. Also, as I was looking to the Strategic strengths and my particular readout, it said where others see roadblocks, you see options to explore. Where others see one path, you see many. You take time to consider each of these options, divine a way to move forward with the greatest potential for success. And should things change, which you likely anticipated, you can quickly pivot to an alternative path. Now, there are other things there which are true, but this particular one, and, you know, actually, it was a very good, surprising, wonderful surprise to validate how my life has unfolded. You know, when I was training in academia, I found the opportunity at my research to see the connection between mind and body. Now, we were working on neuropeptides, and I really thought that there was some insight here at a very fundamental level about quantum biology and how what happens in our mind influences not only our body, but our interactions with the world. It's obvious, but how this pertained to healing. So I wrote a book called Quantum Healing. It was vilified by the medical establishment, loved by the general public.

But at that time, I heard rumors. I was in Boston, and I had a group practice, and I was working at many academic institutions. I heard rumors that I was going to be fired because I was so unconventional. So before I was fired, I resigned and went to California, where I thought there would be more receptivity. But to make a long story short, in the late 1980s, I was so unconventional that everything I tried was actually vilified by the academic institution. So I had to move from one place to another. I always had options ready. And now, 40 years later, it's full circle. The very institutions that were embarrassed by what I was saying are now asking me to come and speak to them. So this one strength, Strategic, has actually been very life-confirming to me. What I did realize, though, you know, I don't strategize consciously. I strategize unconsciously.

Jon Clifton:
[3:54] Can you talk more about that? That's fascinating. What do you mean by the fact that you strategize unconsciously?

Deepak Chopra:
[4:02] It's something that I've come to call spontaneous right action and spontaneous right insight. And I give credit to meditation and my stillness inside, because when I see a problem or a situation or a challenge, in my stillness, I automatically, without even thinking about it, make the choices that in hindsight were the right choices. And even then, in hindsight, I realized I had many options. Exactly what the Gallup readout said to me, it's very confirming. But, you know, in the great contemplative traditions where I come from, meditation, non-duality, if you are connected to your deeper self, this should happen all the time. Spontaneous right action, spontaneous right thinking, and spontaneous right choice-making. By right means which is the most evolutionary for yourself and for those who are affected by your choices. So you could almost say a deep intuition for context, relationship, meaning, and purpose, and a win-win solution always, no win-lose strategy. It's like eavesdropping on a larger collective mind or something like that. But it happens all the time to me now.

Jon Clifton:
[5:48] Deepak, you have written dozens of bestselling books. What strength or strength combination inspired you to write all of those books?

Deepak Chopra:
[5:59] I'll be very honest with you, Jon, all five, because the first one is very important, obviously. Is this the right thing? You have to strategize what the world needs. But then in the end, what's the world needs? You know, I look at my number one strength as the starting point and Futuristic as the end point. And so in between is everything else. And I always look at the future. And I want to be part of creating a future that is, and I use this almost like a mantra, more peaceful, just, sustainable, healthier, and joyful world. So start with strategy and include the future and everything in between. And you're part of the winning team then.

Jon Clifton:
[6:56] Your number five is Futuristic. And I think you are one of the individuals that is stretched our thinking the most into the future. But when you're thinking into the future, how many years are you thinking?

Deepak Chopra:
[7:10] Well, I'll give you an example. You know, when the Genome Project was announced, I think, in the year 2000, then Larry King was doing a show, Larry King Live. I happened to be in Milan, and I got a call in the middle of the night that I was going to join Larry King for this big announcement. President Clinton had just made the announcement that we had deciphered the alphabet of life. And so Larry King had a bunch of people on the night show, including people from the NIH, experts in this whole area. And after the show ended, Larry asked each person, what the discovery of the genome, what would it offer for the future to humanity?

And, you know, my peers, all academics, said some wonderful things. We would be able to cure cancer. We would be able to predict disease. We would be able to decrease disease by developing something called gene editing and so on. And so I was the last person on the panel. And everybody had amazing ideas about what would happen 10 years from now. I said, Larry, they've already told you what would happen 10 years from now. Ask me what will happen 100 years from now. And so he asked me on the show, I said, and I said it both jokingly, but also seriously, I said, Larry, 100 years from now, we'll be able to decode the genome of a Larry King or a Jon Clifton or a Deepak Chopra. We'll be able to email it or actually send it through quantum entanglement to another planet in a distant galaxy, faster than the speed of light through entanglement, we'll be able to use the dust of that planet and the biosphere of the planet to seed galaxies with human life.

And, you know, he looked around at the panel and he said, is he pulling my leg or is this possible? And they all said, theoretically, it's possible. And now we are already talking about biospheres in other planets, in the Milky Way galaxy, there might be 60 billion habitable planets just based on the Goldilocks zone. And so I was thinking 100 years ahead in technology, but I always think 100 years ahead also in terms of peace and social justice and climate change and health and opportunities and joy that our descendants will create, because ultimately it's the same genome, by the way, and the matrix of the genome that is recycling as what we call life on this planet. And we have an obligation to our descendants who are basically the recycling of ourselves.

Jon Clifton:
[10:26] What should leaders be thinking about as something big that's coming down the pike over for the next 10 to 20, maybe 100 years.

Deepak Chopra:
[10:35] What I'm suggesting to anybody who's in the entrepreneurial field or who's looking at the future, both business or otherwise, is listen to the collective conversation. What is happening right now? And the collective conversation right now is around conflict, terrorism in the world, mechanized killing, social and economic and gender injustice. Of course, climate change. And also things like health and joy. So if you're going to start, you know, I talk to entrepreneurs all the time. And, you know, I find that most entrepreneurs are part of what I call the hustle culture. They have an exit strategy even before they've started the business. It's like, you know, deciding to divide the loot before you rob the train. They're not even thinking of what is the right opportunity is always, first, what the world needs.

Secondly, do I have the skills, the talents, the strengths? StrengthsFinder comes in here to actually provide it. Third, am I an expert? Fourth, if I'm not, can I create a team of experts? That's fifth, am I offering anything that's absolutely unique and irrepressible? And sixth, is it going to alleviate suffering? Instead of a hustling exit, exit, exit till you die, which is the final exit, you're still hustling. So if joy is not the measure of success and wellbeing, what's the point of life? So that's why I find the wellbeing, the Gallup poll also very interesting, because success has to be redefined as the progressive realization of worthy goals, the ability to have love and compassion, but also to know your strengths and to know who you are at a more fundamental level so you can help the world.

Jon Clifton:
[12:40] You know, a few times you've mentioned the word connectedness, and of course, that's your number two, CliftonStrength. You've also told us a number of really powerful theories and stories about the importance of human connectedness and just how connected we are as humanity. In fact, you've told us time over time that the very image that we all portray to the rest of the world has to do with our connectedness. Can you talk about how that strength has influenced your work?

Deepak Chopra:
[13:10] Yes, that strength has influenced my work tremendously. Again, this is, you know, it goes back to some of my, what should I, experiences in the contemplative traditions. You know, in the Eastern contemplative traditions, there is no such thing as the separate mind. In fact, what we are told, even in our meditation practices, is to realize that the separate self is a socially induced hallucination. And I've always believed that, that the separate self is a socially induced hallucination, that we are not only inseparably connected to each other, but at the most fundamental level of our existence, we're actually inseparably one. The one consciousness differentiates into innumerable minds and innumerable perspectives. And so for me, a great leadership strategy is shared vision by the leader, emotional and spiritual connectedness, maximum diversity, leveraging each other's strengths, and dreaming a dream together for a solution to any problem. So, you know, I've focused on many things in my life, but for the last 30 years in my public work, I've focused only on what I call a more peaceful, just, sustainable, healthier, and joyful world. And for that, I've always thought that I need a critical mass of people who want to be the change they want to see in the world. So in my Connectedness strength, I bring together people who have different views, who have different perspectives, who even argue with each other and sometimes are competitors. And I found that, you know, this current climate of competition between organizations and between institutions and by individuals is all ego-driven, whether it's competition between nations, you know, or between national leaders or between businesses.

And I found a way in my organization, in my nonprofit work, and even in my business, what I found is that if I actually bring together people with different perspectives and even competitors and ask them, first of all, you know, I go through certain strategies for conflict resolution, but I ask them to see if there's a solution here which will benefit even the competitors. We invariably find one. And it actually maximizes the potential of everybody in that matrix of connectedness, even when they're competing with each other. So yes, Connectedness has been my second strength, and it has been enormously productive.

Jon Clifton:
[16:29] Now, as you know, there are about half a million students, at least in the United States, that go through CliftonStrengths every single year, from Kansas State to the University of Tennessee to Michigan's Business School. If one of those students took CliftonStrengths and they had Connectedness in their top five, what advice would you have for them?

Deepak Chopra:
[16:47] You have the ability to create an extraordinary team. There's now something called social science and experts who are, people who are experts on something called emergence, they say if you have maximum diversity, if you have a vision, if you can get people to leverage each other's strengths and you create spiritual and emotional connection, there's no problem you can't solve. So being the leader of an organization with that strength of Connectedness, you are participating in the emergence of a new paradigm.

Jon Clifton:
[17:31] You have Maximizer number three. You've also talked about the fact that you leverage the strengths of others and that you often have them reflect on the best points of their life. How else do you use Maximizer and how else do you bring out the best in others?

Deepak Chopra:
[17:48] You know, when I read Maximizer, I read the things and I'm looking at it right now. You know, you focus on things correctly, develop others to do the same, whether it's a project launch, a conversation or a problem to solve. You start with the belief that all actions and reactions must lead to quality decision-making. You can't imagine yourself or your people doing something that is just good enough because you're committed to doing things with excellence every time. Now, that's 100% true of me, but I'm reading it directly from your report. But I also maximize my own energy. This is very interesting. I'm very responsible for my personal, emotional, physical wellbeing and I use one of the Gallup questions on a scale of 1 to 10, how much energy do you have to do all the things you want to do in a day? But then I go, and with the people that I engage with, I make sure that if I'm going to work with them, I maximize their wellbeing. Maximize their energy. So yes, I maximize the leveraging of their strengths and putting them together with other people that can complement their strengths. But there's something very important to me, which is how do you achieve more by doing less? And one of the things you achieve more by doing less is you maximize everybody's state of wellbeing and their energy level as well.

Jon Clifton:
[19:34] Is there anything where your Maximizer has pushed you in the final moments to perfect something when you think that in its absence, you may have given up?

Deepak Chopra:
[19:44] Yes. But Jon, there are phases in life. So when I was kind of in a way, I felt not part of mainstream academia, and I felt kind of almost ostracized. I persisted in what I felt was my truth without being personally offended. And, you know, I joined with people who were considered marginal or fringe. But actually, I knew they were forward-thinking and futuristic and strategic like myself. So I joined forces with them. And we never actually fought what I thought was the darkness. We always brought in the light. And now the paradigm is shifting.

Jon Clifton:
[20:39] Now, people who have Adaptability have an unusual ability to handle change. How does Adaptability play into your leadership?

Deepak Chopra:
[20:50] In my leadership strategy, if you want to call it that, I have a phrase, infinite flexibility is the secret of immortality. So, you know, it's a phrase that comes again from ancient wisdom traditions. And when things don't seem to go my way, I let go of my idea of how they should be, trusting that I don't know the big picture, and because I have many, many options anyway, things, you know, I use this mantra, no resistance, go with the flow, okay?

No regrets, no resistance, no anticipation even, just this moment to go with the flow. And then, you know, given all the other strategies that we have, my strengths, somehow this has become a mantra, adaptability and flexibility. And, you know, I believe adaptability in consciousness, but also adaptability and flexibility in the physical body. So, you know, I'm a great student of martial arts, of yoga, of tai chi, of mind-body coordination, and I find this principle of adaptability is very important in the physical body, in what we call our emotional exchanges, but even in our intellectual thinking. You know, when I hear people criticizing me, I don't get offended. I instead ask myself, what can I learn? And, you know, even when people are personally attacking me, I don't personally get, I used to get offended personally. But then I realized that, you know, if I was going to be offended by every critic, then I would be offended for the rest of my life. So Adaptability offered me many opportunities even to change my mind sometimes because I didn't take criticism personally, but even as feedback.

Jon Clifton:
[23:04] You have Self-assurance as your number eight strength. And sometimes those with Self-assurance, they're very confident, but they can also be iconoclasts. They can be contrarians. How does that manifest itself for you in your day-to-day leadership?

Deepak Chopra:
[23:21] That manifests in my day-to-day leadership by people sometimes rolling their eyes out when I'm saying something that results in people sometimes making fun of you. And I always then remind myself there's a difference between self-worth, and selfie worth. I don't want to sacrifice myself for my selfie. The selfie is always dependent on others. It's either things superiorly or inferiorly. It needs validation. It needs recognition. It needs relevance. I decided if I wanted to pursue everything in my life, I have to sacrifice my need for validation and reassurance by others. And the only person I can trust is my own self, provided I let my ego get out of the way.

Jon Clifton:
[24:25] Your number six strength is Achiever. People that have Achiever very high are incredibly driven, so driven that it is really difficult for them to shut it off. As somebody that has recommended to many to make sure that they're taking care of their own personal wellbeing, how do you balance those two?

Deepak Chopra:
[24:44] I was very driven, Jon, as a medical student, as a resident, as a fellow, competitive in academia, competitive and driven, hard work, exacting plans, driving ambition. And then, you know, I said to myself one day when I was about 40s, you know, that's probably the last refuge of the failure to be so driven that you never experience joy. So I changed my internal dialogue to saying, joy is the only measure of success, joy is the only measure of wellbeing, and then that helped me balance out my achievement-driven tendency. To go the other way. And then I realized that I'll always be an Achiever, but in a different way. Not through hard work, exacting plans, but actually maximizing my strength.

Jon Clifton:
[25:48] You've given us incredible advice over the years on joy being a metric that leaders should be following for countries, for their organizations. What advice do you have from them now in terms of how they should measure it and how to drive that through communities or organizations?

Deepak Chopra:
[26:03] First of all, remember your own joy when you were a child and innocent and playful and full of curiosity, wonder, affection. Remember that. Everybody's experienced joy. Secondly, change your attitude. Every so-called adversity is an opportunity. Thirdly, recognize that success is not just money. Money, of course, is important for us, is part of our success. But it's also, as I said, the ability to love and have compassion, to know your strengths and be connected with your inner center, self-assurance. And thirdly, learn to make people happy and find meaning and purpose in your life. If you have those ingredients, return to innocence, attitude, focused on success, but not only money. You know, I heard a lyric from Bob Marley, some people are so poor, all they have is money. Focus on generosity of spirit and abundance. That's important. Third, make other people happy and find meaning and purpose in your life. That's the secret.

Transcript autogenerated using AI.