Leadership That Listens Across Borders

Jon Clifton:
[0:06] Today, I'm joined by a very dear friend of Gallup. She is an author, a diplomat, and a scholar, Dr. Ambassador Robin Renee Sanders. Ambassador, it's great to have you here today.

Robin Renee Sanders:
[0:19] Wonderful to be here.

Jon Clifton:
[0:20] Ambassador, of your top five strengths, which of them have you used most throughout your career?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[0:26] I normally think of my strengths as an amalgam of who I am. And if I had to just pick out one from that amalgam, I would say probably Learner. I feel like I'm more a lifetime learner than anything else. But I like to think of myself as a blend of all of those things together, that it makes me me, you know, having that combination. If one of those things were different, then I wouldn't be me today. And some of the achievements that I've had, luckily, have had throughout my life may have played out differently. So I'd like to think of them as an amalgam of myself, but picking one, I would probably say that that's very important to me is the Learner, because I feel like I'm a lifelong learner, no matter what it is, whether it's something academically, whether it's something life lessons, you know, whether it's something strategically or politically or policy related or culturally related. All of those things sort of make me get up in the morning.

Jon Clifton:
[1:25] Now, another great strength of Learners is when they re-communicate to others, when they share with others what it is that they've learned. How do you successfully communicate what you've learned and who do you seek to communicate it to?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[1:38] Then I would say that, you know, when I look at other avenues of my life, even, you know, through the friends that I've had for years, it really is that people know that I'm sincere and that I'm straightforward. I'm not a big talker though. And I think that the sincerity and the integrity that comes across, I think, helps me do that. And so when I look at sort of the things I do socially or culturally, I think all of that comes together because I'm just a regular old person. You know, there's the job, and I try never to let the job lapse over into my personal life or into things that I do with my friends or anything like that. So I think that that's important. You know, when I talk to young people, I always say to them, you know, make sure that you have a life. You know, you can have all of this, but make sure that you also have a life because that makes you a whole person. And I think that that's, you know, a key thing that sometimes gets lost, you know, as you look at what you want to do for your career path.

Jon Clifton:
[2:55] Now, you talked a lot about your friends. You do have a very wide circle of friends and you also lead with Individualization. People with Individualization have an unusual ability to understand somebody's soul. How is it that you use Individualization to get to know people so well?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[3:12] You know, when I look back, if I just sort of slice out my diplomatic career for a moment to answer that question, I would say that my Individualization was key in being able to connect to people in refugee camps that I had to go and visit to making sure that I understood the culture of a country or a culture of the village, because there's not a cookie-cutter approach to this. You have to go into, at least my perception is, you have to go into a country with a tabula rasa, that you don't come in with any preconceived notions, that you come in with an understanding that I'm here as a guest. I may work for the U.S. government, but I'm a guest in your country. And so I want to be able to be respectful. We can have a difference of view. We can certainly have a difference of perception and all of that, but I want to respect you as a guest in your country.

And so I made the triple, quadruple effort to just go to any village that I could, you know, in every country I've served, I've used Nigeria a lot as an example, but I did that in Sudan, I did it in Congo. I did it in Portugal. I did it in Namibia. And so I felt like then I could interpret the economic, political development challenges and the everyday challenges, just like I would here in the U.S. And those same skills, if I call them skills, let me just say that same part of me, I do living here in the U.S. I want to understand everybody's view. You know, I tell people, I used to tell my staff, you know, democracies are messy. They're not meant to be straightforward. That's not and it's not about everybody thinking the same way. That's just not what it's about. And so I just that same skill set I use in my everyday life here as well.

Jon Clifton:
[5:20] As a U.S. ambassador and you've engaged diplomats all over the world, how did you use your Individualization with them?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[5:28] For the most part, connecting as an individual. Yes, we are representing our countries, but how do we connect as an individual? And so I try to do that across the board, whether someone is a chief of mission or in any capacity. So I would say just trying to connect as an individual.

Jon Clifton:
[5:58] In Gallup's research, we found that of the four needs of followers, one of the most critical needs is compassion. Can you talk about how you've demonstrated compassion or what advice you would have for a leader that said I need to get better at demonstrating compassion?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[6:16] Yeah, you know, I think some of the examples we've talked about today in terms of, you know, understanding and understanding the culture that you're living in, being able to listen or wanting to listen, but not just listening, but hearing. Hearing what someone is telling you, not just listening, but really hearing, even if you have a completely different worldview. And I say that, let me put a caveat, because, you know, I don't want people to interpret that comment as a carte blanche on human rights violations on, you know, anything that's untoward in any way to human life or to someone's wellbeing. But when I say listen, I mean, in order for you to even come up with a strategy, you have to be able to understand the perspective of the person that's across the table from you, even if it's a perspective that is abhorrent to you. You've got to be able to understand it or understand or at least be aware of how deep it might be. Other than that, you're not going to be able to find a way out. And so compassion to me goes hand in hand with that. And when you take away, I used to say when you dehumanize an individual, you can do anything to them. And, you know, I've seen that in some circumstances. And so you're right, compassion, you have to have compassion for your fellow human being. Because once you don't have that, then you can do anything. And we've seen that. We've seen that in conflicts throughout the world.

Jon Clifton:
[8:20] When you work with people, whether it's at your organization FEEEDS, whether it's been at one of your embassies in the past, how is it that you bring out the best in others?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[8:30] Well you have to ask them how I bring out the best in others. I hope that I have. You know, I strive to do that. And, you know, you have to give people space to be who they are. You have to also balance that with keeping things on task. But you have to be the same kind of, I want kindness and the same kind of balance that I described earlier. You have to have with people that either you work with, work for, or that you want to work with. And so, you know, I take the term diplomacy seriously. And you know, I think that I try to live that in just about every capacity of my life if I can. And so I think that if you are a leader, I think the best leaders that I have ever worked for have been the nicest people also that I've worked for.

Jon Clifton:
[9:41] Now, you also have Strategic in your top five. Can you talk a little bit about how a diplomat uses Strategic, especially with respect to foreign policy?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[9:52] Yeah, I think it's an interesting one to have delineated like that because I always thought of myself as a strategic thinker. You know, what's 10 steps ahead or what's five steps ahead? And so, you know, I ... Having been a person who recently took their strengths, it was interesting to me because it made me very reflective on some of the things that I've done throughout or decisions that I've made throughout my life. And so I think that Strategic is a huge part of who I am as a professional because I do want to think five and 10 steps ahead if I can. And I used to call it, when working with my staff, I used to say, you know, what's the cuff list? You mean, you know, the cuff on a sleeve, you know, let's at least think that far out. You know, it may not be hard and fast. Sometimes in policy circles it's called a trip list or a trigger list. You know, what are the triggers that may cause X, Y, and Z?

I'm not that formal necessarily in my day-to-day work per se, but I always try to think four or five steps ahead, even if I don't sort of make it into a formal trip list or a trigger list. And so when I see things happening throughout the world, I'm saying, how didn't someone at least have that on a list, even on the back of a napkin list of a potential outcome? So what are the unintended consequences? And I think that where we have challenges in almost any government is when we haven't thought about the unintended consequences. And I think that's important. And, you know, I think that for ... My experience, you know, having, even if it's informal, just having that thought process five or 10 steps ahead. Maybe 10 is too far, but it's certainly, you know, from the one to five area, if you're in a strategic position, you should at least do that.

Jon Clifton:
[12:07] People with Strategic often have multiple plans ready for whatever takes place. As you mentioned, five to 10 steps ahead. How do you know when you've arrived at the right strategy for something?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[12:19] When it works. But if it doesn't work, then you have on your list, on your cuff list, then, you know, you should be able to pivot. You know, you've got to also be able to pivot. And you also have to be flexible enough to know that, you know, maybe everything on your cheat sheet is not going to happen or it's not the right trajectory. And you have to be flexible. Flexibility is equally as important as everything else.

Jon Clifton:
[12:49] Talk about how you use Arranger, because a lot of times Strategic is how one sets up the plan, and Arranger is sort of how you set that plan in motion. Talk about how those two interact with each other for you.

Robin Renee Sanders:
[13:04] For me, it's got to be, there's got to be like a bifold perception. You've got to have that one to five or five to 10, and as I said, I think 10 is probably too far. Let's do the one to five example. You've got to be able to pivot, which means you've got to be able to rearrange. And so, you know, whether you have someone on your staff who is your chief of staff or your, you know, political lead or your economic lead, you want them to be thinking along those lines. And when you're having your meetings, you're talking about the what-ifs, you know. And, you know, in a lot of places that I've lived and served, you know, the what-ifs were really critical, you know, were really critical.

You know, not to eat up the time, but, you know, there's ... I'm not sure I've shared this story with you before, but it was in Congo, actually, where we were given the wrong directions coming out of a transitional area of the country that had a lot of conflict. And we were given the wrong directions to get back. And we had these gentlemen come out of the bush area with their AKA 47s. And so I could see them coming out. We had not quite reached their roadblock. And I was in the back seat and I had really two great people with me that worked for me at the embassy there. And as we were approaching, I just said, don't say anything about the embassy, don't say anything about me, don't say anything about what they want, just listen to what they want. And if we can accommodate what they want in a way that doesn't lead us into conflict or get us kidnapped, then we will do that. But I said, you know, I am just quietly sitting in the back seat, minding my own business. They don't have to know that I'm American. They don't have to know anything about me. You are two males. You're going to have a conversation with them. And hopefully that will get us out of a difficult environment. And that's what it did. But I could see them coming out in enough time to say to the team in front of me, okay, I'm not the ambassador in this circumstance. Don't mention me. I am subordinate to what's going on. And this is the only way I think that we can get out of this without having a difficult environment.

Jon Clifton:
[15:52] Talk more about moments of adversity throughout your life. What are some of the most sort of significant challenges that you've faced, and what strength or strengths did you use in order to overcome those obstacles?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[16:07] You know, I get asked that, like, a lot. And it's one of the questions that I won't say I struggle with, but it always baffles me to an extent because I came out of a very strong family environment that was supportive, protective. My father was career military, as you know, and so I lived abroad most of my formative years. And so there's not an obstacle that I can identify that wasn't sort of, I want to say, cushioned somehow by my parents that I wasn't aware that it was even there. And so it sounds a little Pollyannish, you know, as a response, but it's an honest response. And I get asked that literally all the time. I don't have a by the bootstrap story to tell. I just don't, you know, and I credit my folks for that. That's all I can say.

Jon Clifton:
[17:13] But do you think it's some element of extreme resiliency? Because you just shared a story about a time when you potentially were facing a threat of violence as ambassador, and yet you didn't reflect on that as a moment of adversity.

Robin Renee Sanders:
[17:30] I didn't reflect on it as a moment of adversity. You just have to think your way out of stuff. I mean, I know that that doesn't always work. I really don't mean to be light about that, you know, because there are circumstances that, you know, it could have done a 360, could have turned out completely differently. So I don't want to give an impression that I'm making light of that at all. But in response to your particular question, I was thinking that you were asking me in the context of, you know, did I have obstacles growing up kind of thing. And so I don't have a by the bootstraps story to tell in that regard. But, you know, sure, you know, through some of the places that I've served, you know, there were difficult environments. Did I look at that as an adversity though? I just looked at that as the cost of doing business.

Jon Clifton:
[18:27] Another one of Gallup's leadership demands is the ability to think critically. You've done that extensively. Your strengths have demonstrated that over the years. What advice would you have to an aspiring leader on how they can think critically?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[18:45] I think that what's important is to understand past your own analysis. Sometimes we get wrapped up in our own analysis of something, and we don't allow other things to come in. And if you do that, then the probability of you missing something is high, at least in my estimation. So, yes, you know, think through, you know, the challenges that are before you and that you and your team talk about and that you see. But what aren't you seeing that might be there?

Jon Clifton:
[19:31] Right now, the demands of leadership are increasing dramatically. In fact, I think it was Axios that said this is the hardest time to run an organization. But now that we're faced with artificial intelligence, climate change, haptic technology, biotech, of all the things that leaders need to be focused on in terms of what they should be learning about, what advice would you have for them? What should they be focused on learning about?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[19:57] So I think they're the immediate things. You know, what I would put on the cuff list, I think, is harder these days because, you know, 18 months ago, I wouldn't have guessed the conflict in Ukraine. You know, I'm not sure who might have had that on their cuff list. I don't know. Maybe somebody in Ukraine might have. I don't know. So I think what should be on your list at the top is unpredictability. I think we're in a globally unpredictable environment. Would you have said, without naming an institution, that, you know, we had a hiccup in the banking sector, you know, six months ago? So I think the watchword is unpredictability. And you just have to be, maybe companies need to hire somebody that just looks at unpredictability.

You know, remember, I would say five or six years ago, you didn't have sort of the chief transformation or, you know, you have all of these new positions in companies now as things have changed in the world. And so maybe we need a person or a small division that that's what they do in a company. If I were a head of a company, I don't care what sector, I would probably look at having someone, maybe the person that would be my transformation would also be looking at, you know, he or she would be looking at, if you had to predict, you know, something that would be so far from the norm today, what would be on that list?

So it goes back to trying to think ahead. But I'd say right now, it's just, everything is unpredictable. I gave a speech not too long ago or a keynote lecture at one of the U.S. war colleges at the end of last year, actually. And one of the things I talked about was, you know, the unpredictability of things and the importance of multilateralism and how we're going to stay together as a global world. I don't see that without improved multilateralism. Right now I see more organizational or country grouping silos. When I say silos, I mean groupings around the world where we're not a part of. And I said to the mostly colonels in the audience, including visiting colonels from about 20 nations were also there, that, you know, if we as the U.S. are not in some of these groupings, then we're on the menu. And so I worry about that because I see more and more of these world groupings that we're not a part of.

Jon Clifton:
[23:10] For a lot of successful people throughout their lives, they had someone who helped them identify their strengths and also develop their strengths. Did you have someone do that for you, and if so, how did they help you identify and grow those strengths successfully?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[23:28] You know it's funny. I find that you know an intriguing question and one of the things that I think about a lot is how lucky I was to have the parents that I had. I don't give anybody credit for that but my folks. You know, my interest in education and my interest in culture and my energy and my worldview. You know, they are responsible for all of that. And I give them so much credit because not only they deserve it, but I'm just proud that they made me the person I am today. And, you know, the experience of being a daughter of a military person has its framework on me in terms of discipline and gave me a world view. It gave me exposure to culture all of my formative years, and so different cultures and living in different environments, all of my formative years. And I think those things, when I look at myself and my sisters, we're very similar in terms of our interests. You know, we all love culture and we all love to do cultural events together. And we all love, you know, learning and being educated and being involved and contributing to our community and all of those things. And then the other thing, and this really goes to my mom, is that we love sports. You know, my father is not a sports person, but my sisters and I we're like diehard sports fans. But my mother was and my grandmother was.

Jon Clifton:
[25:17] Were they fans of the NFL too?

Robin Renee Sanders:
[25:19] They were fans of literally and they were more than just fans. They were statisticians on stuff. I mean, they knew, you know, particularly on football, baseball, hockey to some extent, certainly tennis. They could quote years and years and years back. And so, you know, the teams that I like today are a product of all of that. So we're, you know, we're three sisters that are diehard sports fans. So, you know, it's fun. It's a lot of fun. And that comes from them. But anyway, the person I am and all the elements that you have talked about today and all of my strength, that really belongs to my folks.

Jon Clifton:
[26:06] Ambassador, thank you for everything that you do for Gallup. Thank you for everything you do for this country. And thank you for everything that you do for the world. And thank you for being here today.

Robin Renee Sanders:
[26:14] Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Transcript autogenerated using AI.