Building a Campus That Builds Leaders

Jon Clifton:
[0:08] Today I'm with one of the preeminent thought leaders in higher education and the president of Western New England University, Dr. Robert Johnson. Robert, thanks for being here.

Robert Johnson:
[0:19] Thank you, Jon. Good to see you.

Jon Clifton:
[0:21] Robert, start a little bit and talk about your own personal strengths journey. When did you first take CliftonStrengths and what were your reactions when you first saw your top five strengths?

Robert Johnson:
[0:30] So I first took CliftonStrengths probably about 15 years ago or so. And so it's been part of who I am as part of my leadership journey so to speak. In recent years at Western New England University, our vice president and chief experience officer, she is very fluent in strengths. And so this is the second institution that I've led where we draw upon the strengths of the entire leadership team to lead and manage the organization. And what we're going to do at Western New England University is we've started with the leadership team and we'll then go down into the second level staff, managers level. Eventually we will get student leaders to come to understand their strengths.

We envision a day where within our career center as we begin to prepare students as they get into their junior and senior years that they will come to understand their strengths. And so what I'd like to see is a total ecosystem on our campus of strengths because I think understanding who you are, what you do well, what you bring to the table, what you do not bring to the table is really, really, really important. One of the reasons why I became so interested in strengths is because I've just been kind of a lifelong student of leadership, and I've looked at leaders from all walks of life. And it's one thing to understand your strengths, but it's also really important to understand and how you build out your team. To complement either things that you're just not good at or things you don't want to do.

Jon Clifton:
[2:31] Totally.

Robert Johnson:
[2:32] Right? So strengths is an intricate part of how I think about building team, leading the organization, and truly figuring out what's next.

Jon Clifton:
[2:47] Now, tell me, where were you when you first took strengths, and what was your reaction when you saw Futuristic as number one?

Robert Johnson:
[2:54] When I first took strengths, I was the senior vice president at Sinclair Community College in Dayton, Ohio. And when I saw that Futuristic was one of them, well, first I didn't know what Futuristic was at the time, right? I was like, oh, okay. And because I'm a Trekkie, it was like, okay, that's really cool, right? No, but it began to help me shape how I would view my leadership when I ultimately became a president. I began to understand what the upsides are and what the blind spots are. And I think as a leader, that's really, really important to have enough self-awareness to know your blind spots and to have a high enough EQ to ... and confidence that you hire people that are strong in those areas and it doesn't bother you whatsoever.

Jon Clifton:
[3:59] Where are you typically aiming your Futuristic? Is it with Western New England University? Is it with higher education? You're obviously a member of the Council of Competitiveness. Is it for the United States? Is it for the world? How do you aim it?

Robert Johnson:
[4:11] You know, it's for the world for me. It's not just Western New England. It's not just the United States. It's the world. It's the possibilities of building the next generation of leaders who will go out and transform the world. You know, I think it was Bishop Desmond Tutu when he was receiving the Nobel Peace Prize who said, if it appears that my head veers above the crowd, it is because I'm standing on the shoulders of those who have come before you. You know, Stephen Covey in his book of, what, Seven Habits for Highly Effective People, one of them is how do you want to be remembered? I want to be remembered as someone who touched at least one person's life.

So it can't stop at Western New England. It can't stop within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the United States. We're global citizens. And, I mean, think about this. On a planet with almost 8 billion people on it, as an educated citizen, you and I, with at least a college degree, bachelor's degree, we represent about 7% of the world's population, those of us with college degrees. Whether we like it or not, we're privileged. So we have a social responsibility to leave the world better than the way we found it. So just being committed to a little small, well I shouldn't say a small place, a place a region, a country, I think is short-sighted. I think as future leaders, as we develop the next generation of future leaders, we have to help them understand that we're all part of something bigger than ourselves, and I want to educate the next generation of global leaders who will do so.

Jon Clifton:
[5:56] Now that also sounds a lot like Connectedness, which is of course your number two theme. How do you use that in your leadership?

Robert Johnson:
[6:03] In part what I just said. Using Connectedness is to try and bring people together to exchange ideas, and it's about creating an environment and a place and a space where there's civility, mutual respect, civil discourse, where we learn to agree to disagree and help people understand that we all have more in common than we do differences. And to the extent that we can do that and connect people, what we find is that when we're trying to solve for a problem, as long as I understand that I'm not the smartest person in the room, and that all of us are smarter than any one of us, when we connect people together, we can get to the best solution.

You know, my dad used to give me a number of leadership lessons, and he used to always say, separate the person from the professional. And he said, you know, when you're trying to solve a problem, when you're trying to get something done, he said, when someone brings you something, an issue, whether you like them or not, whether they hate your guts or not, the first question you ask yourself is, are they right? And if they're right, you deal with that. You separate the person out of that. And I think that's what Connectedness is all about because I'm just a guy who likes to get things done. And the way that you get things done is that you bring people around the table who just want to get things done. And to the extent that we can connect people together to make that happen then, you know, we're only limited by our imaginations. You know, tell me when in the history of the world, as we know it, when a group of people have come together, rowing in the same direction, marching to the beat of the same drummer, have decided to achieve a certain goal and objective, and they couldn't do it. And that's what I think it's all about, bringing people together, picking a common goal, a common dream, a common aspiration, or whatever it may be, and let's go take the hill. Let's conquer it. Let's make it happen.

Jon Clifton:
[8:14] But so when you're talking about your authentic self, I mean, one of the aspects of that particular strength, Connectedness, is for people to exhibit, exude humility. But what is the barrier for so many leaders to be authentic?

Robert Johnson:
[8:36] You know, another lesson of leadership from my dad, he used to always say don't believe the hype, theirs or your own. I think a lot of leaders allow their egos to come into play to not allow them to be humble. You know, I'm not leading because I'm the smartest person in the room. I'm leading because I've been honored to be in this position. And I think we have to come to the table with that sense of humility to help everyone on our team know and understand that we're here to serve. I think leaders who are narcissistic, who are egomaniacs, I think they allow their egos to get in the way, simply put. And I just simply won't do that. That's not the way I was raised by my mom and dad in Detroit.

Jon Clifton:
[9:33] Now, one of the things that I think is also a hallmark of your leadership is that you're an incredible listener. What strengths do you use to listen?

Robert Johnson:
[9:43] I think the biggest strength that I use to listen is this sense of Connectedness, of trying to connect with people and not just hear them, but listen. And when I listen to them, try and make sure that I'm addressing the things that's most important to them. At the end of the day, running the university, I don't do much. Most of us sitting in the CEO suites, yeah, we do stuff, but we don't do much, you know. So, I'm not packaging financial aid. I'm not sitting in the counselor center meeting with 20 students a day. I'm not serving up meals. I'm not in the hundreds of classrooms teaching all of the classes. I get my work done through others, and to the extent that they're okay, will the organization be okay? And to the extent that they understand that they get their work done through others makes us a stronger operation. So if I don't connect with people, if I don't really understand what's on your mind, Jon, and what you need to accomplish and what's really important to you, then you're not going to be able to be focused on your work, and you're not going to be able to build out your team accordingly. And by the same token, I can have the expectation that you're listening to your people, because I'm listening to you, because I'm listening to you.

Jon Clifton:
[11:42] Well, now that change, I think decades ago, leading through change was kind of a sudden course of events, but now change has become a constant. What strengths do you use to help lead people through constant change?

Robert Johnson:
[11:55] Well, I think the biggest thing for me as I think about my strengths is as a Maximizer, you know, helping people see the best in themselves, helping them to perform at peak performance. If you look at my strength of Maximizer, it's about, you know, okay, you can do this. You can make this happen. I believe in you. Don't be afraid to fail. I mean, it's getting the best out of people and getting the best out of the team, it's pulling a team together and helping them to understand that we're only limited by our imaginations and that it's possible. It's possibility thinking. It's, you know, nobody, no one broke, you know, when we think about the 100-yard dash in nine seconds until somebody did it, right? You know, but before then, everybody said it couldn't be done. So I think the art of possibility, it's possible.

Helping people to understand their strengths and embracing their weaknesses and figuring out ways to complement that and trying to build a team where we all complement one another. And it's leading any type of organization. That's what we want to do. I think that's when we get into possibility thinking, because at the end of the day, I don't care whether you're building widgets or if you are in the service industry, we're only as good as the people who are within the organization. Now, you know, I'm very cavalier about this, and it may sound as if I'm oversimplifying it. It's very complicated. It's very complex. And all of the things I just said are far easier said than done okay? So I recognize that and I think as part of being a Maximizer you know you  have to push people to optimize their ability to get things done to shine where possible, but you also have to know when to pull back.

Jon Clifton:
[14:17] Example of that. When did you ever have a time when you felt like you had to hold back with someone or hold them back? 

Robert Johnson:
[14:22] This was years ago. We were working on a project at a place I used to work probably more than 10 years ago, and it was a campaign. And I had a really good team, but people were burning out. And I could see it because they wanted to maximize. They wanted to get things done. They wanted to achieve. They believed in the vision because, you know, Futuristic Robert will push them to the brink, right? You know, and as soon as we start going down a road, of course, I have another idea and another idea and another idea. And, you know, and I said to them, you know what, let's just pause for a minute. You know, what are the 10 things on our list that we're trying to get done? And I want them all done. But you know what? Let's only do five. Let's only do five. And so and so, you know, you take that off of your plate. You take that off of your plate. Let's hold that for next year or the year after. And, Jon, when I said that, the sense of relief that came, I mean, it was like in a moment, like the whole room just exhaled.

Jon Clifton:
[15:45] But what made you come up with the idea to do that? I mean, you are even built in a way, you have Achiever number five, your Ideation. That combination with Maximizer burns where you are very intense. What light bulb went off where you said, you know, we need to pause right at this moment and let's just take things one at a time?

Robert Johnson:
[16:08] You know, I think I mentioned earlier that I've been a lifelong learner of leadership, a student of leadership. So I just read a lot of stuff over the years. And one of the things I really study, even though I'm not a psychologist, I've just learned it on the streets, is human behavior. And I'm always asking, you know, the people I work with, so how you doing? You know, what's going on? You know, do you have balance in your life? And so I try and connect with them in a way that I not only understand what's going on with them on the job in terms of the goal, the Futuristic, the Achiever, you know, making it happen, but also them as an individual, because I think to the extent that we as leaders know our people in that regard, and I'm not necessarily talking about getting into their personal lives and that sort of thing, but how they're managing their stress.

So I'll say, so when I'm interviewing my leaders or potential leaders to come work for me, I'll ask them, you know, so what's your passion? And I don't want to hear about work. What is it that you enjoy doing? Should I hire them? I'll ask them, okay, you know, how often do you get, do you like to go fishing? When is the last time you've been fishing? You know, take a few days off and just go. I promise you that while you're gone, nobody's going to come in with a flash drive and steal all of your work off of your laptop or your iPad. It'll be here when you come back. You know, and if you think about it, no matter how you get work done, nobody clears out everything on their desk or on their computer. You just, it just never happens. So I think understanding what's going on with people and connecting with them and giving them the freedom to take a step back. And when you start hearing, to your original question, you know, enough stressors from enough people on the team it's like, okay, you know, we might have a bubble that will pop and it'll be all of our heads. And that would even be worse.

Jon Clifton:
[18:32] You know, two of your strengths, Connectedness, number one, that allows you to see people and help connect them to a higher purpose in life. And Maximizer, you help bring out the best in those individuals. And so the combination of the two is fascinating. It's almost perfect to be a university president because you can do it at scale. So how do you use those two to get people connected to a purpose, bring out the best of them, and how do you do it at scale with so many students?

Robert Johnson:
[19:02] Well, I think it starts with a vision. You know, it has to start with a vision, a common goal, something that we all can aspire to, helping us to understand that we're all part of something bigger than ourselves. You know, sure, we have a concrete goal, a tangible number or a thing that we want to do or a building that we want to build. But you know, I think we have to have a bigger purpose. And for me, the bigger purpose is about transforming lives. You know, a few years ago, I was at an all-campus meeting, and this is prior to Western New England. And I said, why are you here? Why are you here? It was an all-campus meeting to all the employees. And I paused for a second, and I said, you know, why did you come here? You know, remember that purpose, the reason why you said you wanted to get into this business, to touch young people's lives? Is that still your purpose?

Because at the end of the day, you know, we can talk about majors and interviewing skills and mindsets and all of those kinds of things. I believe that if we are all focused on this common goal of transforming lives, leaving the world better, a little bit better than the way we found it. You know, Stephen Covey always talks about, you know, what do you want on your tombstone? Mine simply is, I want it to be said that Robert Johnson made a difference in at least one person's life. That one person may not be the next Mother Teresa or Martin Luther King Jr., but they may be the person who inspires the next Mother Teresa or Martin Luther King Jr. They may be the person who inspires someone who ultimately discovers to cure the cancer or to world hunger or poverty or whatever the case may be. I think the way that you inspire people is that you have to have a common goal that people can see themselves a part of.

So, for example, when I interview people, I'll say something like, look, you know, civility, mutual respect, a sense of humanity, civil discourse, and all that you do. I'm here to make a difference and to transform lives. And, you know, give me two people, one person that is the Mensa, you know, the brainiac like in terms of doing your job, and they look at those values, and they say, Robert, well, you know, it's those are nice, and yeah, I can do them. I'm okay with it. And then you give me this person who's really good, but they are the embodiment of that. That's what they really believe. That's who they are. I hire the second person every time. And I always look the candidates in the eye, and I say, look, if these values of humanity, civil discourse, mutual respect, and civility are not a part of who you are, if you really don't want to make a difference and transform lives, even if I offer you the job, please respectfully turn me down. That's what you have to hire for. So you then begin to build a culture of leaders. That's why they're there, because we're all there because we're a part of something bigger than ourselves.

Jon Clifton:
[22:47] Your number four strength, Ideation. Can you talk about how Ideation helps you with your leadership? And also people with Ideation are often known for big ideas that they've had, ideas that have helped completely change the game. Are there a few ideas that people look back and reflect and say, that was a huge idea that he had and thank goodness that he had that idea?

Robert Johnson:
[23:08] Sure. The great thing about Ideation is that you're trying to be innovative by thinking about the possibilities of what you can do within whatever your domain is. The bad thing, or I should say the downside, I shouldn't say the bad thing, the downside of Ideation is you're thinking about that next thing that you can do, right? Because, you know, you got to kind of try one thing and see if it works before you bring on the next thing. And, you know, as you know, with Ideation, it's like, oh, I got an idea, oh, I got an idea, I got an idea, I got an idea. So I have to make sure I surround myself with people and say, yep, that's a great idea, but not now.

Jon Clifton:
[23:52] How do you make sure you don't lose a good idea?

Robert Johnson:
[23:55] It's hard. It's hard. When you have that idea, you know, for me, you keep something by the nightstand, you write it down or record it on your phone, and then spend some time with it like within 24 to 48 hours. Because sometimes you may dream, you may fall asleep and dream about an idea. You got to write it down.

Jon Clifton:
[24:22] So do you have some sort of Leonardo da Vinci Codex Lester where everything is written down great ideas or what?

Robert Johnson:
[24:28] I do. So I'm a visual learner so I have a lot of mind maps. So I would draw pictures write a thought down, when I write a speech, I'll draw three, four, five, six circles on a piece of paper, and what idea do I want to talk about, and then I'll extend three or four lines from each of the ideas. So, for me, it's mind mapping. That's how I do it. It starts with the idea. So how would this work? Oh, well, what about this? What about that? What about that? And so you have to spend some time with the idea. You can't just have an idea, oh, that's a good idea, and go tell it to somebody and say, well, I hope this works. You do have to flesh it out. And you have to find people, depending upon the idea and what it's about, talk to people, you know, because sometimes you will clearly see, quickly see, it's not such a great idea. And then other times, they will help you to flesh it out in ways that you never thought. And the other thing is I talk to people who are ... I don't just talk to people who are in my industry. You know, most of my mentors are not in higher education, have not been in higher education over the years. Many of them have, but most of them were not because they have an objective lens.

Jon Clifton:
[26:00] And they help fuel new ideas. Where do you find those individuals?

Robert Johnson:
[26:06] You find them different ways. So there was one guy back when I was in Detroit, when I was at Oakland University. I heard him speak, and I just walked up to him, introduced myself to him, started talking to him. And I said, and I was 30-something then, right? I need a mentor. You know, and the way that you find mentors is you need to seek them out. Now, sometimes people will take you up under their wings and make you their mentee, but I think you have to seek those individuals out. My dad used to say if there's something you ultimately want to do professionally within your career, find somebody who's doing it, right, and seek them out. And so I've always sought them out.

Jon Clifton:
[26:57] As somebody with Ideation, what advice would you have for those that don't burn with it like you do? When we see somebody with Ideation, sometimes the ideas can yank so far outside that we say to ourselves, oh no, is this too far? But how do we let them to keep going so that they actually do come up with something absolutely incredible? I mean, there's got to be people throughout history that they were ideating on some things that everyone went, like the Wright brothers, flight, come on. People are openly criticizing. Let's put a man on the moon. So how do you know when to let them go? And at what point do you say, do the reining back in to say, no, no, no, this is too many ideas, you're going to drive us nuts, that kind of thing?

Robert Johnson:
[27:41] Well, I think part of the Ideation is setting a goal and putting benchmarks or tripwires, so to speak, along the way. Okay, we're gonna give this a shot, let's go with it. But if it has not gotten to a certain point by a certain time, we need to rethink it. We need to revisit it as to whether or not this is the right thing to do. But what we also know with Ideation is that we have to be willing to pivot, because a lot of times what we start off thinking about is not what we ultimately end up with, and what we end up with is light years better than what we thought about, what we initially, the idea we initially came up with. So it's really finding that balance, and you know, when you hit that point where maybe it's not quite working the way that you want, well, what else could this be used for? You know, are there other possibilities as to where this idea can take us?

I mean, Thomas Edison, what, over 2,000 tries before he figured it out. And I'm sure that there were people and/or investors along the way, nope, and some bailed. But I would say to the person who has Ideation as a strength, hold on to it. Don't let it go. Embrace it. Embrace it. And if you have people on your team who have that strength, embrace it. Because that's where the next best thing comes from. That next great thing is going to come from an idea. I mean, once upon a time, there was no such thing as a chair. At some point, somebody got tired of sitting on the ground and said, I'm gonna create something. And they said, well, what is that? It's a chair. Well, why do we need a chair? Well, everybody sits in a chair. I mean, we could, the list goes on and on and on and on and on. It's about possibility thinking. It's possible. It's possible. Because everything that exists today started initially from someone's idea. Someone's idea.

You know, this smartphone that I have in my pocket and you have in yours, someone had the idea to put a camera on it. Okay? To put a camera on it. You know, we were traveling, and we take pictures everywhere, Michelle and I. We don't even have to carry a camera. I can remember when I was in the seventh grade, having my 35 millimeter and then going in a dark room with the chemicals and all of that, you don't have to do that anymore, okay? But this notion of thinking about that next thing is really, really, really important, because if Kodak and Polaroid had thought about that when they saw the smartphone coming along with the cameras and thought about evolving their business, or F.W. Woolworth, which ultimately became Foot Locker, they'd still be in business today.

Jon Clifton:
[31:01] What do you think is the, if, if so again, if a student, somebody new to strengths, takes strengths, they find they have Ideation top five, what fuels great Ideation? Is there something that you can pour onto Ideation that's, that's a catalyst so it just creates an explosion of even more ideas? Is it immersing yourself in some kind of reading? Is it meditation, interacting with people, being forced, you know, faced with a problem? What fuels great Ideation?

Robert Johnson:
[31:27] Well, I can tell you what fuels it for me. And these are not necessarily in the order of importance, is read a lot of stuff. So 80% of the stuff that I read, you know, on a daily basis has nothing to do with higher education. You know, back in the 90s when I was in higher ed, I used to read CIO Magazine regularly because I was trying to figure out that next big thing. I always felt that if I could take something from industry and if I could just pick up 15 percent of that and utilize it within higher ed, that I would seem like the best thing since sliced bread. So I think reading a lot of things outside of whatever it is that you do, because that's where you'll get an idea, and ask yourself, how can you apply it?

Mindfulness. You've got to find time to just be, to think. And whatever works for you. I mean, if you're a runner and that's where you get your head space, run. If you swim, swim. If sitting and being still does it for you, if reading something does it, whatever works for you to get in that space. For me, it's sometimes just sitting and being still. It's music, but it's a certain kind of music. Classical piano music can take my mind into a place and a space where I just kind of wander off into the abyss. And sometimes I get great ideas. It would be questionable if they were all great. But I get ideas coming out of that. But understanding what allows your mind to relax and go to that place. And it's different things for different people.

So I don't think that there's any one answer except be intentional about it. And if you don't know what it is, figure it out, you know. Sometimes when I'm driving down the street, you know, down the road, but normally when I get that idea, it's because I'm listening to music, not news, you know, not a talk show or what have you. Music is one of the things that does it for me.

Jon Clifton:
[33:55] Now you have Achiever number five. Achievers are individuals who are very intense. They're constantly working. How does that manifest itself for you as president?

Robert Johnson:
[34:07] 24-7. Too much so. So I'm always thinking. I'm always thinking about, okay, so what about this goal, this goal, this goal, this goal? How do we achieve it? The way that it manifests itself the most is that when we set goals for the year is, are we operating with the end in mind? Are we staying focused on the goal? I think, you know, one of the things I do fairly well is that when we're trying to achieve something, it's keeping everybody focused on the goal, operating with the end in mind. And it's better to have two or three things that you get done really well in a year versus trying to do 10. And at the end of the year, none of them are completely done. But guess what? After three or four years, you can have all 10 of them done.

Jon Clifton:
[34:59] People are futuristic. They live in the future. What do you see for the world in the next 20, 25, 30 years? Are we going to be okay? And second, if someone discovered that Futuristic was in their top five, what advice would you have for them?

Robert Johnson:
[35:14] 20, 30 years from now, are we going to be okay? Absolutely, positively, yes. Why, Robert? Because when I look in the eyes of our students, I see the possibility in them. I see the possibility in this generation of young people. They're going to figure it out. They're going to figure out a way to make the world better. They're going to figure out a way to take the globe, this global society, to places we never, ever imagined. I'm inspired by this generation of young people. I know some people are like, oh, you know, this generation. No, no, they're wrong. They're just unequivocally wrong. So yes, the world is going to be a better place 20 or 30 years from now because of the work that all of us do on a daily basis, not without its challenges and not without its ups and downs. We're going to be okay.

For the person who is Futuristic, what I would say to them is continue to look to the future. Always say it's possible. You know, nothing exists until it does. You know, you got to believe. You got to believe. It was in The Alchemist, and is not an exact quote. Paul Coelho wrote the book. But it talks about, you know, when you have this thought or vision or idea, if you really believe in it and you pursue it, the universe, the universe will conspire to make it happen. And I think as long as we, as futuristic thinkers and believers, operate from a paradigm of abundance and not deficit, that we understand that anything is possible, that we will continue to make a difference. And that's why I also believe this generation of young people will make a difference. Have they been challenged? Yeah, but they also just came through COVID, and guess what? They're still putting one foot in front of the other. Futuristic leaders imagine the possible, and know that what people think is impossible can be possible as long as you believe, as long as you operate from a paradigm of abundance and not deficit.

Jon Clifton:
[37:52] President Dr. Robert Johnson, thank you for talking to me about your strengths today.

Robert Johnson:
[37:57] Thank you.

Transcript autogenerated using AI.