The Case for Equality

Jon Clifton:
[0:08] Today, I am with the author, lawyer, and advocate, and the former chief of the Gender Equality and Diversity Branch at the International Labour Organization, Shauna Olney. Shauna, thank you for being here with me today.

Shauna Olney:
[0:21] Thank you, Jon. It's really a pleasure.

Jon Clifton:
[0:24] Shauna, you've been through your CliftonStrengths journey. You know your top five. What of your top five, is it one strength, is it a collection of strengths that you've used to help you be as successful as you are today?

Shauna Olney:
[0:38] I think they're all so interlinked that for me, it was really hard when I was preparing for this to think of what is one, what is the one that has really seen me through my career, through my life. And I would say that, you know, of my top three, I've got Achiever, Input and Learner. And those for me are foundational. They're very much what I need to have to get things done. I need to work hard. I need to get a lot of input. I need to continue to learn. But for me, the real power and the strengths has been the relationship building. And you'll see in my top 10, as you know, five of my 10 are relationship building. So if I look at Connectedness, I look at Positivity, I look at Relator, Developer, all those for me are very interconnected and have been really important in my life.

Jon Clifton:
[1:34] Shauna, when you first took strengths at the ILO, how did understanding your top 10 help you focus in your career, help you accelerate your career? What was that process like?

Shauna Olney:
[1:47] For me, it really resonated. When I read the report, when I read the book, The StrengthsFinder 2 at that time, it made a lot of sense to me. So sometimes we don't see what's immediately in front of us. And I think CliftonStrengths helped me to look at things in a more nuanced way. You know, I'd worked with other strengths profiles, but this was more nuanced. This was less binary. So you see that everything is really on a continuum. It really helps to name things, you know, Positivity. Okay, that's, yeah. I don't think that's something that ... came out in the other strengths models that I used. But clearly, it's a big part of me. Again, maybe because it's considered one of those soft skills that has been underestimated for so long. But it's not. It's not underestimated in the CliftonStrengths.

Jon Clifton:
[3:02] So when you think about your relating themes and how dominant they are in your top 10, how do you use those, leverage those in order to make an impact as a lawyer, how to make an impact as an advocate, and how to make an impact throughout your work at the ILO?

Shauna Olney:
[3:19] One of the things I learned pretty early on was the Achiever in me is the hard worker. And that's number one. So I will work as many hours as it takes. I will, I have incredible stamina. So if something needs to drive into the early hours of the morning, I will do that. But it took me a while to figure out that that wasn't enough. If you were really going to motivate people, if you were really going to get good outcomes, co-create with people, you needed relationships.

And I tend to be somebody who has fewer relationships, but deeper relationships. And that's characterized my life. So it was learning, again, I guess with that Connectedness piece as well, that those deep relationships were incredibly important, but I also needed more of a breath. So to get to know more people, but know them as people, because I tended to keep a distance professionally as well. So there was my personal life, there was my professional life. And I think to some extent, you do have to keep some healthy distance. But it doesn't stop you from getting to know your colleagues as people to understanding that they do yoga too. They might have, you know, an interest in meditation, just like I do. They might love the theater. You know, those connections and relating to people on a personal level, I think are so important. You build those and that also helps you build a team, cohesiveness in a team, understanding in a team. And for me, that was really important, particularly as I moved up in the organization. You, those relationships made things happen.

Jon Clifton:
[5:07] You know, Shauna, one of the hallmarks of your leadership is your ability to listen. And in the world that we live in today, humanity is desperate to be heard. We see 8 billion of the world's citizens that are trying to communicate through billions of tweets, texts, teams messages, any way they can to be heard. But you find a way to listen. You do it with people individually. You do it throughout organizations. And through our project, you figured out how to listen at scale by interviewing women in workplaces all over the world to understand what would create a better future for them. What inspires that listening that you do? What strength?

Shauna Olney:
[5:46] People are so interesting. They have so much to offer. And I think listening to people, we learn so much. So, you know, the Relator, the Developer, the Positivity, the Connectedness, I think all that brings in the need to listen. You know, we are all so different. Our perspectives are all so unique. There's always something different, even when somebody comes at you with what seems like anger or frustration, if you really listen, there's a gem in there somewhere. And it's finding that, because that's how you can also relate to somebody. You find what they're really concerned about, what they're really interested in.

Jon Clifton:
[6:32] Shauna, for those of us that have Relator in our top five, what do you think that the pinnacle of Relator looks like?

Shauna Olney:
[6:40] I think it's about achieving a shared goal. So building those relationships so you can achieve something extraordinary. Now, that's going to look different for different people in different situations. For me at the ILO it was working together with colleagues so that we could change the world, you know. We could make a difference, a real positive difference in the world and then be able to acknowledge that, to celebrate that, and to have those huge ripple effects that come from that.

And if I give an example, I mean for me really the pinnacle of that was the adoption of the new treaty on violence and harassment in the world of work. So this is, you know, new international law. We were creating international law. And we did that through, you know, it's a five-year process. We did that through a lot of hard work, a lot of ideas. We did that through a lot of input. But importantly, we did that through a lot of relationships. So we had to convince the governing body that it was an important issue. So we had to work together across the office, within the team, field headquarters to really make those arguments. We had to build relationships with our constituents, with other people in different departments. And like any big organization, there are turf wars, turf issues, and so we had to convince people that this was the greater good, that if we all worked together, we could achieve something extraordinary that we could all own, that we could all feel proud about. And we did.

Jon Clifton:
[8:23] For those of us that have Relator, you and I both have it, top five, what advice would you give to those who are just starting on their journey have Relator in their top five?

Shauna Olney:
[8:34] What I learned the most in my Relator journey was that you had to go deep, but also broad. I think the depth of relationships and the breadth of relationships is so important not to get siloed. And that's a real risk. So you trust some people. You have confidence in some people. So you tend to go to them a lot. You tend to give them perhaps more of the interesting assignments. And that's something you really, really have to watch for to make sure that you're equitable, that you're looking at other people's strengths as well. And again, you're getting to know them as people because everybody is so interesting. Everybody has a story. Get to know that story, even if it's beyond your very close circle of trusted friends and colleagues.

Jon Clifton:
[9:25] Shauna, all great leaders have had really difficult challenges or obstacles that they've had to overcome. What's an example of one that you've had, and how did you use your strengths to overcome that obstacle?

Shauna Olney:
[9:39] I think the toughest moment in my career was in the International Labour Organization. So I'd started with the new branch, the Gender Equality and Diversity branch, and really worked hard for two years to try to create a team, get that cohesiveness, get that shared vision, that co-creation. And two years in, they actually merged us with another branch, so a whole new branch. And now we were from four units plus from a whole new branch coming together. Now, it came at a very difficult time for that branch because a lot of its external funding had just been pulled. So it meant there were implications for staff, particularly in the field. There were implications for activities. I'd never had to deal with something like that. I actually had to tell people that they might not have a job in two months. And at first it was soul destroying. Just having that huge responsibility for these people's lives. But again, I drew on my strengths and the Relator was very important again to be able to reach out to different people I knew and the Connectedness to those I didn't know. But to make those connections to find out, OK, what can we do financially? How can we help all these people? So.

There were possibilities of finding different jobs of different things they could be doing. So I reached out, first I reached out to every single one of the staff members, and I talked to them about the situation, what it might mean, and just their feelings, what were their aspirations, what would they like to see moving forward. So to really get a sense of them. Then I reached out to all their bosses in the field to find out okay can we get, can you give us some more money? What can we do? Are there other positions? I worked with finance, I worked with the staff union, I worked with a whole range of people in the office to find solutions. HRD was fantastic. Here the developer came out wanting to find out well what can we do for those people that maybe we can't keep? What can we do to ensure they get some career advice? They get some better tools? How can we support their growth? And the human resources development department was fantastic about that. So we designed a whole program, a whole system. And in the end, we actually found positions for almost everybody. And for a couple of them, they were able to take early retirement. Which they were happy with. So again, that process of listening, of actually hearing what they needed, helped us find solutions. And I grew as a manager. It was the hardest thing I ever did. And in some ways, one of the most rewarding.

Jon Clifton:
[13:03] OK, can we talk about your Developer? Developers have an unusual ability to grow people throughout their organizations, people close to them. How do you use it in your leadership?

Shauna Olney:
[13:13] I think this is where I focus a lot on strengths. And this is where coaching has been so important for me to learn what other people's strengths are, to be able to use those and to understand my own strengths and how they interact or potentially can clash with other people's strengths. So, for example, in my team, in the gender equality and diversity branch, I had a lot of Intellection, a lot of Discipline. I had Consistency. I had people who had quite different strengths to me. So, in fact, in the whole team, my strengths were very different. I was much stronger in the relationship building than anybody else. So if you've got that Intellection, you've got to help to build them, help to bring them out and develop them in a different way. So just trying to build relationships, as important as that is, for them isn't going to resonate immediately. So, you know, you've got to find that space where they can think. You've got to work with them on the research projects, but then help them to build those relationships beyond that. That will help the research, that will help the data. So I think that's been really important to me in terms of building a team. Again, when you've got a very fragmented team, as I came into, you have to find the best in people to bring them together, to bring that cohesion. And you can only do that if you look at their potential and help them to build that potential through their strengths.

Jon Clifton:
[15:02] Shauna, people that burn with Developer, they often have mentees. Do you have mentees? And if so, who are they and who are you mentoring right now?

Shauna Olney:
[15:12] So for me, mentoring is one of the most important things you can do because it made such a difference to me. So I had mentees at the ILO as well. They had a program. And so I signed up for it immediately to be a mentor. And now that I'm back in my hometown, I'm mentoring law students. I'm mentoring some people from a women's future leaders program. And informally, people who just come to me. I have a lot of people who, in fact, I got an email this morning from a family friend saying, I really need to ask you a question. Can you meet with this young woman? She's just finishing international relations. She's got these ideas about her future. Can you have a chat with her? Can you, you know, give her some advice? And I love doing that. Absolutely love doing that. To see their potential, to see, you know, the possibilities. And I always give them the 24-hour rule. You get 24 hours to deal with a setback, to feel bad about it. And then you find the opportunity in that. You find what you can do to overcome that that's going to make things even better.

Jon Clifton:
[16:31] Shauna, what would you say great mentoring looks like?

Shauna Olney:
[16:35] I mean, for me, the mentors I've had are great listeners. I think that's absolutely key. And again, finding what is that jewel in the middle of everything you're hearing? What is it that drives them? What is it that excites them? What are they passionate about? And how can that be transformed into the next stage in their career or their life journey? How can that be harnessed? And working with them to find that path. It's so it's not about giving advice. A great mentor doesn't just tell you well you should do this and you should do this, and by the way do this. It's about finding what they want to do. Now you give them signposts along the way, so you give them some ideas well, that's interesting, that makes me think a little bit about this or that, and you know how does that resonate with you. But you're not trying to put them in a box, say this is the right box for you. There are so many paths in the world. People have to find their own. And they have to own that path.

Jon Clifton:
[17:53] As a Developer, one of the aspects of helping an individual or a team grow is through coaching. What do you think great coaching looks like?

Shauna Olney:
[18:04] Well, I was very, very fortunate. In the ILO, they put a lot of emphasis on coaching, particularly for new managers. But as a new manager and then as a not so new manager, I was able to have one-on-one coaching for the entire time. Now, helping with transformation was absolutely essential. And I think, like mentoring, although coaching is different, it's being heard. So the coach listens, really tries to understand what you need and tries to understand your strengths. And I think the whole strengths piece in that is very important. And to help you to go through the processes with your team and with yourself, your own growth, that you really want. So again, trying to listen, trying to learn, and then support. The strengths piece was so important in all the coaching that I had in terms of understanding my own strengths, but also how those strengths interacted with others in the team. And for me, that was absolutely essential.

Jon Clifton:
[19:17] You know, you basically used this word, but it's what you did, which was show compassion. And we find in our strengths-based leadership research that compassion is one of the four needs of followers. Considering how you're able to use your Relator, your Developer, as you mentioned, your Connectedness in order to demonstrate compassion, what advice would you have for others, emerging leaders who too want to be better at showing compassion?

Shauna Olney:
[19:47] I think showing compassion, particularly in difficult moments, is absolutely key. It needs to be authentic. So it can't come out as fake. And that's where, you know, Positivity, you have to be a bit careful that you're actually hearing people. You're hearing what is difficult for them, what they are suffering with, what they're anxious about. You show compassion, you can also give hope, but it has to be real hope. And again, I guess that's one of the four needs. And I think they go together as well. They're really important. And I think you need to show people that you hear them, that you understand them. You're not minimizing the difficulties, but you are trying to show them a path forward.

Jon Clifton:
[20:39] Sometimes we joke that people wear their strengths on their sleeve. And if I look at your background right now, I think I actually see a visual of 5,000 books. And you lead with Learner and Input. Can you talk more about how you've leveraged those two strengths throughout your career?

Shauna Olney:
[20:59] Well, I think I was telling you earlier, I've read most of those books. And there are probably 10, maybe more, boxes of books in the garage that when we moved from France, we actually couldn't fit on bookshelves here. So, yeah, Input is really important to me. I think for me, I need to get as much information as possible for anything, whether it's, you know, preparing for a meeting, whether it's preparing for an event. I need to know as much as I can and analyze as much as I can. When I'm writing, for example, I'll do, you know, days, weeks, however long it takes to do the research. I won't write a word. I need that input. And once I've had that input that I feel confident about, then I will write. And it will come very quickly because all the input is there. So for me, the reading, the discussing ideas, the gathering new ideas has been really important. And to share that input with other people. So that in the ILO in particular, you know, we would often sit in and share ideas. What have you read? What have you, you know, what are you thinking? And from that, you also get really innovative ideas from other people. So just making that sharing of ideas so important.

The Learner always want to learn. I've always said I would never stay in a job if I ever stopped learning. So you have to learn something new every day. Actually, I've never had a job where I've stopped learning. So that was, you know, I think you can always learn in a job. You learn from others. I'm now I've as you know I left the ILO at the end of 2020 came back to my hometown. And I'm learning so much here. I'm learning from the university students that I'm working with now. You know I'm supposed to be giving them information and teaching them, but I learned so much from them as well. I'm mentoring law students. I'm mentoring future leaders. And I learned, I think, as much from them as, well, maybe more than they learned from me. So it's what stimulates me. It's what keeps me active and interested.

Jon Clifton:
[23:26] Shauna, people with Achiever not only have big goals, they also are trying to accomplish small goals throughout the day. Oftentimes, Achievers make lists and they're wondering how quickly can they get everything checked off. What does a day in the life look like for Shauna Olney, whether it's throughout your legal career, whether it was when you were at the ILO? But how do you make sure that you feel like you're accomplishing a lot every single day?

Shauna Olney:
[23:54] Lists are absolutely key to my life. I make lists and lists and lists every day. And checking things off is really important. So yeah, you got me there. So I will get up in the morning. Now, I've got different roles now. Obviously, I'm at home now, working from home. I'm working with the university, doing some advising with some of the students I'm mentoring. I'm also, you know, writing a lot of papers. I'm right now working on a chapter of a book. And I'm also, as I think you know, I was elected the end of 2021 by the General Assembly as a commissioner on the International Civil Service Commission. So a UN commission that looks at pay and different terms and conditions of employment. So we're 15 now on that commission. So I have a lot of different things going on now. I may not have the very busy job at the ILO, but life is still very busy. So I have to have a list for all the different things I'm doing and then decide each day what's the priority. So I'll try to finish you know if it's trying to do all the administrative work at home and gee there's a lot of administrative work. Just finished all my taxes. So breaking everything down into smaller tasks too, so you know the taxes all the different things I had to do, then the International Civil Service Commission. We just finished a session in New York. We just had a two-week session there. So what is the follow-up I need to do for that? And I'll make lists of the people I have to contact, the things I have to fill in, what I have to do. So I do that every day.

Jon Clifton:
[25:43] If someone just found that they had Achiever in their top five, what advice would you have for them?

Shauna Olney:
[25:49] I always tell people that hard work is really important, but it also needs to be focused. So make sure that you're working hard, but you're not also expecting people to work as hard as you do. And I, you know, I've had bosses in the past who really modeled that. They worked incredibly hard, but they never expected anyone to work harder than they did. And for me, that was an important lesson because you know, when I started one of my other positions at the ILO, I remember that I would be working late into the night and everybody else would be working late into the night. And I thought, oh, wow, they're really hard workers, but nobody would leave before I did. And you have to watch that. You know, these people had lives, they had families, as did I, but I was starting out in the job. So I was going to pull those hours just to make sure I could get as much input, as much information, learn as much as I could. But it didn't mean they had to stay. So I realized I had to start modeling better behavior for them so that they could feel comfortable to leave as well.

Jon Clifton:
[27:01] Now, Shauna, you took CliftonStrengths later, but you and I've talked about this before when you and Susan had gone through strengths that did feel like themes that you had kind of known your entire life. Thinking back through your entire life, did you ever have a mentor or anyone who said these are your strengths, or these are what's right with you, your superpowers at a young age, where they help sort of bring out the best in you and help you flourish in terms of your top strengths?

Shauna Olney:
[27:29] I think in the legal career, it was, they weren't necessarily seen as strengths at the time. Relationships were important, but I don't think ... I'm going to say this. People talk about soft skills, and I think that's what a lot of the relationship building is. And I think there's nothing soft about them. I think they've actually been underestimated for a long time, and probably as I was growing up, they were. But they are so important. And they're not soft. They're hard skills. They are some of the toughest things you can do is to take the time and to really try to relate to people, to connect with people, to help people to grow.

We're in such a busy world. People think there's no time for any of this. If you don't take the time you also won't get the benefits. I think it's a good in itself, but I think it's more and more being understood that there are benefits. You get better engagement. You get better productivity. People feel more connected. They feel more part of a bigger picture, of the organization's bigger goals, of the values. So these soft skills, as they're called, and I always put them in quotes because I think there's, again, there's nothing soft about them, are much more appreciated now. Now, certainly the Achiever, people had always noticed as I was growing up, you know, the hardworking, that was what was going to make the difference. You were going to succeed, Shauna, because you were an Achiever. And I think Achiever alone doesn't get you there. I think it's important, but it can't be there on its own without some of those relationship building pieces.

Jon Clifton:
[29:26] Shauna, you've talked a lot about your Positivity, your number nine strength, and how much you identify with that one. You also work in a field where there's a lot of difficult information to digest. How does your Positivity give you the resilience to work through all of that?

Shauna Olney:
[29:45] I think it's looking at the possibilities. So again, the Futuristic comes out there too, the connections. You know that somehow there's a reason for these things, that things will get better, you know, without that sort of, you know, over-optimistic approach. But again, looking at the new generation, you know, looking at the people I mentor, they make me so hopeful. I look at my son. I look at his friends. They're positive. They see the world in a different way. And I'm, I am hopeful. So we need to acknowledge the difficulties. We can't hide from them, and there's some horrific things going on in the world. But we also have to hope that out of that will spring something better. And I really do believe that.

Jon Clifton:
[30:40] Shauna, your number six strength is Deliberative. We often say that Deliberative is those who stop, listen, and assess before taking action. How have you used that throughout your career?

Shauna Olney:
[30:53] I think the listening piece of that is so important. it's really about again the input, but the input from people to hear what they're thinking, what's important to them. So in terms of building a team, how important that is, as well as any research projects, any advocacy work, really thinking about potential obstacles, how we can reshape those, and about entry points. Again as I think I said before, finding what resonates with people, the messaging that's going to be meaningful to people. So I try to think all those things through. Again, Deliberative comes out in in the research work I do, in the writing, really trying to think of all those you know different possibilities, the different ways to put a message forward that's meaningful. But one of the things about Deliberative as well is because sometimes it means you're slower in making decisions, it can sometimes be misread. If you don't really understand what you're doing, you might not really have a view. But my views come after a lot of thought and a lot of discussion.

Jon Clifton:
[32:17] Your mix of strengths, Deliberative number six, Positivity number nine, and Achiever number one. Your Achiever wants to keep moving to get things done. Your Deliberative says stop, pause, let's think about this before we keep going. And your Positivity is saying no, everything is amazing. Let's keep going. Do you ever feel an internal conflict with those particular themes?

Shauna Olney:
[32:40] Absolutely, yeah. And I think it's, you know, and I think the coaching that I've had has been so important to help me ... to use what's most appropriate in a different, you know, in different circumstances. So you know again to use that Deliberative but also with the Achiever to build the team, to make sure people knew what was happening, that we're constantly moving forward but we're doing it in a careful, clear manner. So, you know, how do you bring those together? And you can, they all do work together, but one can sometimes pull the other. And I think the Achiever was really my main focus early on in my career. And I, you know, perhaps to the detriment of some of the others. And I think I learned as I went to balance those better.

Jon Clifton:
[33:42] On that note, Shauna Olney, thank you so much for spending time with us today. And also thank you for everything that you've done in your partnership with Gallup. And also thank you for everything that you've done for the world. You are an incredible partner to us.

Shauna Olney:
[33:56] Thank you, Jon. It's been a real privilege.

Transcript autogenerated using AI.