Real Power Is Knowing What You Stand For

Jon Clifton:
[0:07] Don't Mess With Texas, Let Bags Fly Free, and You're Now Free to Move About the Country are just a few of the most famous slogans he's produced. He's been named Ad Man of the Century, Austinite of the Year, and author of three bestselling books. And most recently, he founded the Purpose Institute.

Roy, if you were to sit down today with an aspiring entrepreneur who also has Relator in their top five, what advice would you give them?

Roy Spence:
[0:35] A couple of things. Number one, I would say, you know, everybody says don't go into business with your friends. And I always say, well, I got a great idea. Why don't you go into business with your enemy? But my point is a young entrepreneur, I would say to him or her, look, first of all, you got to believe in what you're doing. You got to have passion for what, not what do you want to do, but what do you love to do? Secondly, if you're going to find a partner in this thing, look for honey people.

Now, let me tell you what I mean. My mom taught me a lot of things. She used to say there are two types of folks. There are vinegar people and honey people. And vinegar people, you can smell them a mile away, but you still are attracted to them. But don't hang out with them because they're takers. Hang out with the honey people, the givers. Now that sounds simple but it's not. It's really powerful. First of all, as an entrepreneur you got to believe and love what you're doing, not because your mom says so, your dad, or your brother because it's your core strength. Secondly, find a partner or partners who are not like you. Their strengths are different. But they're all one thing we have in common. We're givers. Givers, they don't give away stuff, but they are giving and that's honey people. So I would say, first of all, find some honey people.

Jon Clifton:
[2:15] One of the other phrases that you talk to us a lot about is something that has to do with being bold and having a lot of courage. And that phrase is one riot, one ranger. Can you tell us about that story when you first said that to a top executive and also what strength did you have in mind? And for those that have that strength, what can they learn from you in terms of how you used it at that pivotal time in your life?

Roy Spence:
[2:42] That's a great story. I was just at Walmart, as I told you yesterday, and I would say that came from, in a sense, when I said it. Um, believe it or not, Relator was probably, I was just thinking what drove that, but, and I'll tell you why. I get a call from a guy named Sam Walton. And it's another great story, but anyway, he said, can you come to Bentonville? I was 30 years old. We just two, three years we've been doing Southwest Airlines and he liked me. He told me on the phone, he said, I like you because Ol' Roy — and he called me Ol' Roy all my life — because my dog is named Ol' Roy. I went, OK. So I get a big briefcase with nothing in it. And I fly, I get to Fayetteville, rent a car, drive to Walmart. I'm 30 something years old. And I go into Walmart. And, I was in the same lobby yesterday, 40 years later. And I go to a meeting and there's Mr. Sam in a chair and other folks, David Glass. Anyway, I have a big briefcase because I'm shaking and I put the briefcase in front of my legs because I'm ... and Mr. Sam says, I'm so glad you're here, Ol' Roy, but where's the rest of your staff? Yeah, it's just me. I'm frozen.

And finally, I kind of put my shoulders back and I said, well, you know, Mr. Sam, there's an old saying in Texas, one riot, one ranger. What kind of problem you got? He falls out of his chair and grabs me and he says, Ol' Roy, you're hired. And I think from a Relator standpoint, part of the things that Relators have, because we're not trying to burn a bridge, we're trying to build one. Sometimes you do things, it looks like you're burning a bridge, but you're really doing something that's building one. Because he was testing me. You know? And so I think Relator. Finding bridges to build. And part of that is just keeping your eyes wide open. And, you know, the great song, you know, about, you know, keep your, what is it, heart above your head and your eyes wide open. But keep your heart above your head and keep your eyes wide open. I think that's what Relators do.

Jon Clifton:
[5:41] Roy, at the beginning of our chat, you mentioned that you are a quarterback. And I think in one of our conversations, you once said to me that when you think of your Strategic theme, you think about what you're going to do before the game. And when you think about your Arranger theme, it's what you're doing when you're quarterbacking during the game, as if a maestro was running an orchestra. Can you talk to us more about that, about how your thought process works with your company, with your nonprofit and in your leadership?

Roy Spence:
[6:10] You know, one of the things I learned being a quarterback and also I played safety. And back in those days, you played both defense and offense. And by the way, I might add to all entrepreneurs and leaders, you need to know both defense and offense. And you need to understand the power of the defense, by the way, which we'll get into maybe. But I would say, again, I got lucky in life because of where I grew up and my parents and my sisters and my coaches. I think part of the thing with strengths is that before you want to go into a situation, and you all know this, or a battle or a pitch or whatever it might be, you want to think about, and I'll say it in this way, as a strategic person, you want to think about not the 20 things you need to accomplish, but the one thing.

Now, I know because Discipline is my weakest thing, I don't have the capacity to do. I can't even do a to-do list because when I write the first thing to do, I go do it. So I never get down to the top 10. But anyway, as a strategic person, I think you've got to think about all the things that you need to accomplish, whether it's a campaign or a pitch or whatever you're doing. What is the one thing as a quarterback I got to do in that game? And you study the film. By the way, I'm a huge practitioner of The Art of War. It's not Sung Soo, by the way. His name is pronounced Swinza. Swinza wrote The Art of War 3,000 years ago. And people don't understand that The Art of War was written to never have to fight. That you're so positioned strongly that you win before you fight. And I started studying The Art of War when I was young, about how do you get that one thing so strong that you've already won before you even get on the field?

Well, then once you get on the field, the world changes. That's when the Arranger comes in. You have to adapt. You've got to bring people together. And I would say I learned that mainly through Herb Kelleher. Those of you who don't know, he founded Southwest Airlines. And he hired me when I was 28 years old. And we've been doing Southwest for 40 some odd years. I know they've had some problems recently, but they'll get through it. But Herb would always say, now Roy, when you get into the real business world, you got to make sure that you give thanks mostly to the doers. That's why we would go out and hug the baggage claim people. I mean, he was undercover before even people knew. He understood his flight attendants, his pilots, his mechanics, his baggage handlers, everyone are more important than the big shots at the office.

And so as a quarterback, you hug your tackles and guards and your centers, and you don't give any credit to your running back or your receivers. They're going to get enough. You hear what I'm saying? They're going to get the credit anyway. Give the credit who allows me to throw the pass or run. And so that's a long way of saying, think about as a strategy person, you've got to think of all the things. But then you've got to think about the one thing. What do you have to own? And then once you get in the game, you've got to realize you've got to be adaptable, but you've also got to make sure the people who are protecting you are the ones who get the hugs.

Jon Clifton:
[10:27] Now, for those of us that have Strategic high, Roy, what does the pinnacle of Strategic look like?

Roy Spence:
[10:34] The pinnacle is when you finally get to the idea in my business. And you go and you say, we got all the thoughts. We had great opinions. But in the end game, as a strategist, I had to make the call, or you do, what are we going to do?

Jon Clifton:
[10:58] Now, you mentioned earlier that one of the ways that you grow your strengths, that you grow your talents, is by reading things like The Art of War. Specifically, you had mentioned Strategic. But how do you intentionally develop your strengths, specifically Strategic?

Roy Spence:
[11:15] Your dad knows this, Jim, but I was also ... I get emotional because my sister never got to walk. And again you never know what you grow up with, but Susan Spence never got to walk. And when she passed away it dawned on me that I'm gonna walk for her, and I started walking. Now stay with me. Yes I ran. I was an athlete, but I started realizing this life we have right now is so full of destinations. Gotta get to work, gotta get this, gotta go do this, gotta climb peak mountains, gotta run three miles. I thought, maybe I'm just gonna start walking. And Jim knows this, your dad, I used to tell my preacher, Gerald Mann, if you don't know where you're going, you'll never be lost. And he would say, yeah, but you'll never be found.

Anyway, I think one of the things that I do is that I go, as you know, I walk across 10 states by myself. I go walk and talk to people. And more so than ever, we've got to put this down and look up. And I found that when I did the book, I called your dad before I told anybody, I said, I'm going to walk across America. He said, have you gone crazy? I'm like, yeah. You can hear him say that. Are you crazy, Roy? Are you nuts? Yeah, I am. But I started realizing that one of the best ways to continue your strategic thinking is to go places and do things you've never done before. Jim Collins, a great mentor and great brother, by the way, literally a brother from another. Built to Last, Good to Great. He always said, Roy, you're only as young as the new things you do.

Now think about this. Between you're born and when you're about 29, everything you do is new. First bite, first kid, first drink, everything. And then about 29 or 30, Gallup probably has a more precise number. You think you're doing new things, but you're really not. You're just doing the same thing. Are you going to work? You're doing that. You don't know. So I've always believed part of strategic thinking is to go do new things. And walking is mine because literally you can drive through a neighborhood, Jon, every day. And Gallup has this data about it. How many people know their neighbors now? But unless you walk through a neighborhood, you never know what the neighborhood is. So I'm a walker. I would encourage strategic people to walk. And by the way, look up, America. Put this shit down. Look up. Look around. Look up. Look around. See what's going on. So not to belabor it, but I think walking. I'm the walking dude.

Jon Clifton:
[14:37] Roy, one of the things that you've talked a lot about is the idea that everybody needs a coach. And you were blessed to have a coach early on in your life who helped you identify your talents at a very early age. Can you talk a little bit more about what that story was and who that coach was for you early on?

Roy Spence:
[14:59] I always tell people, y'all remember cursive? And everybody laughs. And I said I was in the eighth grade and I was studying Emerson in Brownwood High School, and Emerson's my favorite by the way because his great concept, don't go where the path may lead, go where there's no path and leave a trail. I started learning that when I was 14 years old. I didn't know what it meant, but anyway. I turned in the paper. I still have it somewhere. I had eight misspelled words. This is eighth grade. Big C minus. Red. I go home to my little house in Brownwood, and I'm thinking, my mom, this is not going to be celebrated at my house. C minus? Then mom didn't say anything. I went, shoo. So I went out, played football, and didn't give a damn about school. And next year, I'm studying Emerson again. And I go to my mom, I'm crying and say, mom, I can't turn in the paper. She said, do the best you can. I turned it in. I didn't have eight misspelled words. I had 11.

And the whole paper was red circles of misspelled words. At the top, Jon, there was a tiny A minus. I still have it. And I went home. I said, mom I don't get it, and she said, well first of all son, you can't spell. And then she smiled and said, I called your teacher, and remember I remember her name 60 years later. I called your teacher Mrs. Levesy, and she said, your son can't spell but he can write. And she looks at me, puts her arm around me, my mom. I'm 14 or 13, whatever. And she says, I don't want you to spend another second of your life trying to be average at what you're bad at. I want you to spend the rest of your life becoming great at what you get.

I didn't know what she meant back then, Jon. I know exactly what she means. It's called strengths. And part of what I'm doing, the reason I'm doing the Make It Movement, is that I think we can change, I really do, the whole culture of education in America through marketing, by the way. And I think we've got to inspire teachers and principals and counselors and kids and parents. Don't beat the kids up on what they're not good at. Now, if it's a character issue, that's different. But discover what they're good at when they're in middle school, and let them become great at that. So that's the story of my strength finders. My mom told me, I don't want you to spend another second of your life being average at what you're bad at.

Jon Clifton:
[18:14] Roy, you are one of the great communicators. As I mentioned before, Don't Mess With Texas, Let Bags Fly Free. What strengths is it that you have in mind when you're coming up with those incredible creations?

Roy Spence:
[18:29] Well, that's why that Ideation number six always pops out. I've always thought that, and I learned this. By the way, I don't know anything. I'm serious. I've learned everything. That is a powerful thought when you think about it. When leaders need to fess up, you don't know anything. You've learned everything. And that's why I'm grateful for my mentors and coaches. But I always thought in some moment in time, even when I was just going to school or we were doing multimedia shows as hippies, and I kept thinking about always back to that, what is the real idea? Not kind of. I didn't understand it all, but I started using the word what is a piercing insight? I know y'all use that word but not the ... what's the piercing insight, meaning I used to believe and I still do if you pay the price to know what the problem is you're trying to solve ... I used to think vodka was the way I got the ideas. Still might be, I don't know. But, the idea god comes in. Stay with me. If you're willing to pay the price to really understand the problem you're trying to solve. And then you're willing to pay the price to create an idea that has never been done before.

Now, I want to repeat, pay the price to know what the problem is you're really trying to solve, and in my case, marketing. And then an idea, a visionary idea that's never been done before. I always like it when people come in, Roy, you remember that Nike ad? We're going to do something like that. And I stop them right there and say, it's already been done. So those two things, and then if you're willing to pay the price and create an idea that wasn't there before, at some point, the idea god will come and say, here's the idea. I promise you. And I use the idea god as an analogy of, at some point, you get rewarded for paying the price to know what this problem is you're trying to solve.

Jon Clifton:
[21:00] Roy, in your leadership, how do you use Responsibility?

Roy Spence:
[21:04] I think that the whole idea is I don't want to let anybody down. I mean, I swear that's why the ride at dawns store. I never knew all of this. You're born and you've got to never forget where you come from. I don't care if it was bad. Here's some good stuff. But I never wanted to let my mom down, my dad down. I didn't want to let my team down. I didn't want to let my sister down. I didn't want to let my partners down. I didn't want to let my community or my country. And that's why I did don't, you know, the whole idea of I'm an American and all the PSAs with all the presidents, they all trust me for whatever reason. And I just don't want to let people down. And I think that's my definition of Responsibility. I don't want to let people down. And that's what drives me to do whatever I do. It really is. I don't want to let people down.

Jon Clifton:
[21:59] Roy, you consume a lot of information, but you've also written a few bestselling books. What strength was it that inspired you to write those books?

Roy Spence:
[22:10] I think part of it was Maximizer. Again, I think trying to find out how to write to things that I'm good at and not things that I'm not good at. And I think, you know, you look at the Strategic strength of trying to create something that wasn't there before. The books that I did, the one y'all know especially, It's Not What You Sell, It's What You Stand For, was a book, bestseller on purpose. And that was way before purpose was written about in any marketing at all.

Jon Clifton:
[22:53] Roy, how do your strengths help impact the way that you lead creative teams?

Roy Spence:
[23:01] Well, a lot of creative teams think that I suck at everything. So that's just another, but I think out of all the strengths that I have, the number one, I think, is the, when you're running a creative session is Arranger. You got to be the conductor. Somebody has to be the person who brings these opinion-rich people into one room. And they've got great ideas about music and great ideas about copy. And these are people who are born creative. And I think Arranger, if you first of all can bring everybody in a room and they trust you, back to Responsibility. They trust you to do the right thing and take responsibility if you do the wrong thing. Then you let ideas flow and you let them come. And before that, Strategic is so important, too, because you've got them focused on one thing, maybe then 50 things. But I love the idea that when we get done with a session as an Arranger, we can walk out, give each other a hug. Seriously, it's like, man, we kick butt. Instead of you sucked at that versus, hey, we won. Good job.

Jon Clifton:
[24:32] I'd like to ask your help with your strengths, because as you know, when before Don Clifton passed away, he had a dream that a million people would get in touch with their CliftonStrengths. And of course, we've now almost crossed 30 million. But now we have a new shared dream, which is we would like a billion people to get in touch with their CliftonStrengths. As someone with Strategic, as someone that burns with Ideation number six, what advice do you have for us in order for us to accomplish that feat?

Roy Spence:
[25:05] Well, a billion's a BHAG, big, hairy, audacious, but a million was a BHAG for your granddad. I mean, and one of the funnest things I got to do is that video about your granddad that I got to do for y'all during some anniversary or something. And I didn't know all he came back from the war and all these things. And he saw the future before lots of folks. And part of the billion is also, sometimes we have to do what T.S. Eliot says. You got to go back to where you started and know it again for the first time.

Why did we do StrengthsFinder? And go back and get re-inspired. Because in today's world, if you look at the Gallup chart, on that one page on boomers when we grew up, not me, but most of us, we were into paycheck, young people into purpose. We had bosses, young people want coaches. It's going to lead to the billion, by the way. We had annual reviews, they want to talk about themselves every day. You gotta go your own way. I'm gonna turn this off. You gotta go your own way. Anyway, and amazing thing on that one chart that we did for the HR groups around America, old days you beat at people and what they're weak at the new days you play to their strengths.

Part of this next generation of millions and millions of people worldwide, they're desperately looking for purpose in their life. You saw it more than ever before. And they're looking for meaning, and they're looking for maybe how to find their strengths, because you find your purpose. Aristotle people who's writing the same time Swinza was by the way. They just happened to be in China and one in Europe, Plato's. Anyway, but Aristotle's a good friend. Aristotle said, where your talents and the needs of the world intersect, therein lies your vocation.

Think about StrengthsFinder. This was written 3,000 years ago. Where your talent and the needs of the world ... I would say you need to do some damn marketing. I don't know. Just as a thought. Where young people are saying, I don't know. I mean, seriously, you know the Make It Movement. We're in middle schools and high schools showing young people for the first time in their life, you can make a great living doing what you love to do. Welding. These are not jobs anymore. They're careers. And really what we're doing is going into middle school and high school in Texas and then America, the Make It Movement's purpose is to help young people discover their purpose while they're in school. Not after they drop out. So part of the billion-dollar BHAG, I mean, billion-person BHAG, is to dial up in the public education and all this that we've got to transform our system from testing to talent.

Think about it. And everyone talks about it and now believes it. But there is no mechanism. If we had student StrengthsFinder or whatever it is that y'all are doing so that every young person in America has a chance to make it because they discovered their purpose and their talents while they were still in school. That's what I would do as number one.

Jon Clifton:
[29:10] Thank you for sharing your thoughts about strengths-based leadership. Thank you for being a strengths-based leader, for helping others lead with their strengths. And also thank you for being an incredible adviser to all of us here at Gallup. And thank you for your time today.

Roy Spence:
[29:25] Thank you, Jon. Thank you all for Gallup. You all are great friends. And let's go. Let's do it.

Transcript autogenerated using AI.