Starting Small: The "Pull" Approach to Strengths at IDFC First Bank, India

Jim Collison:
[0:00] I am Jim Collison, and this is Gallup's Called to Coach, recorded on May 20, 2025.

Jim Collison:
[0:06] Called to Coach is a resource for those who want to help others discover and use their strengths. We have Gallup experts and Gallup-Certified Strengths Coaches share tactics, insights and strategies to help coaches maximize the talent of individuals, teams and organizations around the world. If you're listening live, love to have you join us in chat. You can ask your questions there. If you're listening to the podcast or the YouTube video after the fact, you can always email us your questions: coaching@gallup.com. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app or right there on YouTube so you never miss an episode. Deepanjan Deb is our host today. DD, as we like to call him, is our Market Leader for Gallup, located in our India offices. And DD, always great to have you on Call to Coach. Welcome back!

Deepanjan Deb:
[0:49] Thank you so much, Jim. It's a pleasure. I think it's over a year that we missed each other, and always wonderful to be back here and looking forward to this one, to this first edition of 2025 with two very, very special guests.

Jim Collison:
[1:03] Yeah, well, hopefully, we'll do a few more. We've got these great guests. Why don't you take a second and introduce them for us.

Deepanjan Deb:
[1:07] Thank you so much, and welcome everybody to the first edition of 2025 Called to Coach for India. I'm Deepanjan, and I'm really glad to have two very special guests with me today — rather, with us today So, it's about three years now that Gallup in India started working with IDFC First Bank. And the two people on screen have played a very, very important role in transforming the organization into one of Gallup's prime philosophies of work around StrengthsFinder — our strengths-based culture. It gives me a great pleasure to introduce Radhika Mehta, who is the Head of Learning and Development at IDFC First Bank. She brings with herself almost 18 years of experience in the human resources domain as well as in the L&D space. Welcome, Radhika! Along with Radhika, we have Pankaj Singh, who is the head of HR Retail Banking Operations and Customer Experience. He has over 20 years of experience in this space, and both of them together have played an incredibly wonderful role in creating a change that we dream to see in organizations. Pankaj, welcome to the show!

Pankaj Singh:
[2:24] Thank you, Deepanjan, and great to be here.

Deepanjan Deb:
[2:28] Thank you so much. Before we kind of start with a question-and-answer session, I would want to hear from you your first thoughts on being on the show and a little bit about yourself.

Pankaj Singh:
[2:41] I'm quite excited to be here. I've been hearing a lot from Jim Collison and all the uploads that he has been doing on YouTube. So let me introduce myself by introducing my Top 5 strengths. My Top 5 are Ideation, Analytical, Relator, Learner and Input. You know, so I think that should give us sneak preview in terms of what I am. So if I look at my Top 10, seven of my top 10 are in the Strategic Domain, and the Relator sits right there in the middle in the Top 5 at #3. I think that defines me in terms of who I am. I'm somebody who is inquisitive, who is always looking in terms of, you know, why things are how they are, and I enjoy you know, doing things in a new manner.

Pankaj Singh:
[3:32] So while there are set patterns, in terms of how you achieve results, I'm always inquisitive that can these things be enhanced also. My role involves meeting a lot of people. So that's where my Relator themes come into play. I really like to know what are individual motivation, what do people like, you know, what are their drives, what are their, you know, you know, blind spot? Because I think it gives me a greater appreciation of, you know, what the individual is. And collectively, because I'm into human resources space, it's about, you know, how different people respond to the same thing in a different manner. I find it really fascinating. So that's about me.

Deepanjan Deb:
[4:15] Wonderful. Radhika?

Radhika Mehta:
[4:17] Yeah, so I'm excited to be here. I'm excited to be here this morning. So thank you, Deepanjan, for organizing this and Jim, for having a very late night, but having us on the show. So really, really glad to be here. I've been heading the Learning and Development function at the bank for a couple of years now. My Top 5 strengths, I like to introduce myself through my Top 5, which are Focus, Activator, Significance, Strategic and Communication. As you can see, three out of my five lie in the Influencing Domain. So speaking to people, presenting, rallying people around, that's something that comes naturally to me. This perfectly fits with my role, because my role as the head of learning and development involves driving the learning agenda, which is to speak to a lot of stakeholders, get sponsorship for initiatives, present a lot, tell a lot of stories to excite people and get aligned to the objective.

Radhika Mehta:
[5:16] I lean in very often into my Activator and Communication to get this done and get a momentum to get people on board. I also use a lot of my Strategic to find alternative ways and invent new ways of doing things; my Focus and Significance helps me find which is the goal which will have the greatest impact for the organization. So I find strengths beautifully playing in my role and positively impacting it every single day.

Deepanjan Deb:
[5:50] Before I go to the next set of questions that we intend to ask you, but before that, Jim, your thoughts on this wonderful introduction through strengths? You have been a pioneer in this movement when we started it, and how do you feel about this?

Jim Collison:
[6:05] Yeah, I just appreciate them coming out today to be a part of this interview. Thanks for doing that. We're excited for the stuff that's ahead. So, DD, let's get started.

Deepanjan Deb:
[6:15] Perfect. So, Pankaj, Radhika, you know, we started this journey around, you know, discussing the philosophy of StrengthsFinder as a concept almost three years back now, right? And we started small, where we started, you know, discussing things around, How do we help every individual be the best version of themselves? That is how we started the discussion. And from where we started and now from where we have reached, right, we started small. We started, we, we stepped, analyzed and observed each milestone. And now we, from a pilot group, we are now creating, working towards you know creating a developmental journey for your leaders. It's come a long way. Would love to hear your thoughts around how this journey panned out and how do you intend eventually to take it ahead?

Radhika Mehta:
[7:06] Well, I think, when we started the conversation with the Gallup team three years ago, what we were totally convinced was on the power of the tool to help people become the best version of themselves. A couple of reasons why we started small was, one was so that we could get firsthand insights from people who were experiencing the tool. Any course correction required would help us. Also, I think there were three conscious strategies we used. One was to find the correct group to experience the tool. In a sense, we went with those who were willing — so people who wanted to know more about themselves, I think that was a great group to begin with. We also built capabilities within the HR team so that the conversation around strengths, the language starts becoming very familiar and common. And third thing, I think we have positioned this tool right now as more as a pull rather than a push approach. This, I think, has significantly helped us, because now we see people who have experienced the tool actually become advocates of it and wanting more people in their teams to get touched through the tool so that they understand their approaches and they can work in synergy with them. So it's been small, but now it's actually been a voice from within the organization wanting to understand more about strengths, getting curious about what do they bring to the table, how do teams perform? So I think it played out for us very, very well in hindsight.

Deepanjan Deb:
[8:36] Any thoughts from you, Pankaj, on this?

Pankaj Singh:
[8:37] I totally agree. I think, like, I was talking about my strengths, you know. I lead with Analytical, and whenever I'm thinking that's you know something big needs to be changed, I'm a great fan of pilot, in terms of, you know, testing it out, you know, how the concept works it out. And, you know, initially itself that, you know, we had done our research, and the tool appealed a lot to both myself and Radhika. And sometimes, you know, when you are so convinced about it, you know, we have been into human resources for the last 20 years, and the way the strengths language resonated with us, we find it that, OK, it would appeal to everyone in the same way. And, and from thereafter, the journey began, in terms of converting one batch after the other to the strengths-based philosophy.

Deepanjan Deb:
[9:27] Wonderful. Radhika, just to just touch base one point on something that was really, you know, touched me was the fact that you talked about the pull versus the push, right? What helped you create you know for the pull to take over eventually?

Radhika Mehta:
[9:43] So I would think, like I said, probably the experience of people spoke. We didn't really need to go and advocate it much. So people, you know, we have, we've seen significant sessions we've done, where everybody who, you know, goes through their reports actually is spooked — if I may use the word — to say how accurately the tool describes who they are. So it's been, you know, a conversion, so even people who probably would have been a little iffy about it or not sure, once they take the assessment, strengths just speaks to them, or their talents have spoken through the report. So, and then they speak to a couple of more people, and then they get curious, and then everybody wants to then try out for themselves. So I think it's becoming a kind of a movement by itself.

Deepanjan Deb:
[10:34] Yeah, absolutely. Speaking for itself, and, you know, I have had the opportunity in the last 12, 13 years to speak with so many different people across geographies, and almost everybody had the same feeling around the fact that it's kind of a mirror image of who they are, and that kind of lens authenticity to the way you kind of translate it into when you're working, irrespective of the domain of work that you are in. Jim, any thoughts from your end on this? Because we understand the banking industry itself is a very dynamic one and to implement your thoughts from your experience in the global banking space.

Jim Collison:
[11:16] We often see, once the understanding has been made among individuals, that it speeds up relationships and team interactions. Did you guys experience that? Did you see it? Did you see it working that way?

Pankaj Singh:
[11:32] Absolutely, Jim. I think that was one of the main revolution of, you know, opening this strength to all our leaders. What happens is, you know, when we work together with individuals, we're focused on the task in terms of, you know, who is the best person who is going to accomplish the task? We never focus in terms of, What are the talents that the individuals have or probably can there be a different perspective that could be brought into the table? The moment we do a group session or a session with the manager and the team, there's a greater appreciation of the individual as a whole rather than what somebody could bring on the table. And I've seen it many a times that, OK, there was this Aha! movement that, OK, you know, I've been seeing the flashes of these trends coming out in the individual, but I have never leveraged it.

Pankaj Singh:
[12:22] Let me give an example that, you know, we were doing this session for our data analytics teams. Just by virtue of that data analytics team, there were a lot of people who were in the team who had that Strategic Domain. But there was this one person who had, you know, four out of five in the Relationship theme. And once we did the session, you know, he had Empathy, you know, he had Relator, you know, the manager said, "OK, whenever we talk about data and numbers, this is the only guy who said that how it's going to appeal to the emotion of people." So, you know, while I have been hearing it, I never dwell, in terms of that, OK, this comes naturally to him, and it will be a great help in terms of designing solution for our customer. So absolutely agree, Jim, you know, I think once people understand, you know, what's more in the individual beyond what they know, I think, you know, we see fantastic results coming our way.

Jim Collison:
[13:17] I love, I love that example. Did you see, on the opposite, the opposite side of that, sometimes we see it reducing conflict, right? As people begin to understand, Oh, I, I didn't see this before, and now I start to see it. Did you see some of those kinds of things come out as well?

Pankaj Singh:
[13:34] Yes, yes, yes, very much. I think, let me give you a statement with another example. We have two leaders who are part of the same team, working very closely. One leads with Consistency, and second leads with Individualization. And there was this, you know, common conflict, in terms of what's the best approach? Somebody with the Individualization is saying that, "OK, we need to look at each geography differently and each, you know, individual differently." Whereas, somebody with a Consistency saying, "OK but it will not be fair to others" kind of a thing. The moment we did this session, I mean, they themselves had a, you know, great discussion in terms of Oh yes, you know, I see this coming in the individual that, OK, whenever we go, this is our common point of, you know, friction that happens, but now I understand where he comes from. And today, when they work together, while one is able to make solution which is for a specific market or individual, the second is ensuring that OK, it gives a consistent experience. So now the friction is reduced. And these two strengths, when used in tandem, can be really complementing, in terms of what the output could be.

Jim Collison:
[14:43] Radhika, would you add would you add anything to that?

Radhika Mehta:
[14:45] Absolutely I think, you know, when we say — I wouldn't use the word "conflict"; now, I think there's a better understanding, because now, you understand where the other person is coming from. To give you a classic example, I think, and we probably speak about it, and probably Deepanjan would lead us to it, is both of us have been working for quite some time, and we have very contrasting strengths or complementing strengths. So the Activator and the Deliberative, I used to always think, you know, Why does it take so much time for a response? The Activator is all about getting started. And now, I've started realizing that, you know, probably Pankaj needs the space to think through. And my Activator is the energy that fuels things to get things done. So conflicts are reduced. There's a better appreciation and understanding of people. And when that comes in, I think it just, then we start just leveraging each other.

Jim Collison:
[15:37] Yeah. I love when it moves away from, "You always" to "Your Activator is ... ," right? You can kind of call that out, and it takes the personalness out of it. It reduces the conflict. So I love the way you say that. It always comes to, you know, no longer "you," it's "your," right? I love that. So DD, I'll throw it back to you.

Deepanjan Deb:
[16:00] I'll just, you know, just continue from what Radhika was sharing to what, what strengths also does is that it gives you awareness at an individual level and also at a team level, right, team or when you're working with peers at a peer level. And, and, and you've both talked about your own talent themes or your strengths, and both of you have very, very different strengths, right. One of the things that strengths does is that it helps you first differentiate yourself from the other individual but then also helps you appreciate the differences. Like, that's how it brings people together around complementary partnerships. So what if your, you know, experience has been working together? Now that you have understood the fact that you're, you know, philosophically different by trait, right, would want to hear from this. Because this is a very, very important aspect of working together in teams, especially when you are aware of, like, the scientific differences, instead of being subconsciously doing it before not being aware of it.

Pankaj Singh:
[17:06] I think I'll take that and, you know, extend it from what Radhika said — that, for example, for me, the plan of action needs to be charted out before we start any journey. But while I want to chart that plan of action, you know, sometimes I get too involved into it to get it absolutely right. And I used to work with Radhika, you know, I used to be always been accused about that, OK, you know. I lead by Ideation, so one is that, of course, the plan takes too much of time. But the more common complaint used to be that plan keeps on changing. Because every time when we start a journey, I'm not married to the plan that we had charted out for, because if some new development happened, I'm willing to change. Now, Radhika wants to have a clear map that tells me, Where do I need to go? And while she has taken three steps, I used to say take a left, and then she said, OK, I have already started that, you know, and then take a right. So we used to have this constant, you know, discussion in terms of, OK, boss, are you sure of yourself that, OK, what it is? Or, you know, I've already made the arrangement, and now you're changing it to the plan.

Radhika Mehta:
[18:07] I think I reflected a lot. And that's why I'm saying that, while I can have the greatest plan, but I would require Radhika, in terms of, you know, taking them off to the ground. And it also helped me to, you know, moderate the constant change, which I keep on making to the plan, because I have to then measure, and I have an Analytical that do all the changes that have come to my mind, are they going to significantly impact the plan? Or we can go and we can, you know live, with that. So that that's been my realization. I'm a Relator. I'll just add one more thing: I have great connect with people, you know, I can influence individuals to get things done, but when it comes to the larger group, I have to rely on her Communication. Because, you know, she can really talk to a wider audience and, you know, explain my thought much better than what I ever thought about. Because those thoughts are there in my mind, but the speech that they require comes from her Communication. So that's how our partnership has been over the years.

Deepanjan Deb:
[19:07] Very, very nice to hear. Yes, Radhika, your thoughts.

Radhika Mehta:
[19:10] Yeah. So I have a strengths envy about his Analytical. So initially, I used to think it was a pain that, you know, like you're saying, every time there is a plan I'm excited about, there's always a critique of it or saying, "OK, but what if this goes wrong, and what if this doesn't happen?" But over a period of time, I've started to really rely on that, because that helps me through the questions that he asked to think through better, to look at certain things that I may not have seen before. And the Ideation helps me just better my ideas just through the sheer difference that he gets to the perspectives that I may hold. So I think it is a partnership through the strengths lens now that we've actually capitalized on what somebody else does well and then work towards a common objective.

Deepanjan Deb:
[20:03] Very, very nice to hear. And in fact, what leads to this is, you know, Jim, what we call as kind of scientific synergistic output, right? Because 2 + 2 will not be 4, but it'll be 5, 6, 7, whatever, because that's when you create complementary partnerships. Now, if we move away from, slightly move away from, you know, at an individual level and, and think of it from an organizational perspective, for any initiative, for any initiative to be successful, you need a very, very strong supporting hand as well as a buy-in from the senior management or the senior leadership team of an organization, right. And IDFC First Bank has been, you know, wonderful in kind of driving this at, from the top, right? How would you describe this experience as well as the mindset of your leaders today, when it comes to your StrengthsFinder, the approach or the philosophical construct and the practicality of the use of the StrengthsFinder in a banking scenario?

Pankaj Singh:
[21:02] I think we have a team which is quite open for trying out new things. It also helps that we have got a very young leadership team with whom we work together. So as we — we build training intervention. I work very closely with Radhika to bring training intervention for different cohorts. Now, there could be functional training, there could be behavioral training. But when I was thinking that what should we do at the leadership group and something which is going to really change the organization? We thought that, you know, after a certain point, the competence for the role is given that most people who are at a senior level, they know their job, they understand, you know, how things operate; they understand what market is allowed, what market challenges are. And, hence, we thought that it would be a great thing if we give them an insight, in terms of, How does behavior work? Because leadership is not only about, you know, getting a thought leadership or in terms of getting things done, but it's also about rallying people along with you.

Pankaj Singh:
[22:09] And Gallup, you know, strengths-based approach came us, came to us as a, as a great leverage to do this. So when the first time we, we said that, OK, you know, why should, should we try something like this? Again most people in the group were leading from the Strategic Domain, so there were a lot of question and answer, in terms of, How does it work? Does it really going to change? We have seen intervention into the past, and they have been limited impact, and the sheer thing about it, you know, this group has been working together for the last five years. The constant question came in, What is it that I'm going to know about the individual that I already don't know?

Pankaj Singh:
[22:49] Because I've been working with the person day in and day out, 8 hours a day to 12 hours a day. What is new that you're offering? I already know the individual. But once we started taking them through the journey and, like Radhika said, you take an assessment and when you read the report, people are, you know, shocked, astonished that How can a tool describe themselves in such clarity that, you know, probably they would have also envied it. And thereafter, you know, we took small steps in terms of, you know, explaining what the strength — we, you know, one thing which we were very mindful was not do this, you know, spraying it across the entire organization. We took a cohort. We first brought an understanding of what strengths-based philosophy is all about and then dwelled, in terms of the administration of tests and then unraveling the report. We have never left the report to be read to the individual by themselves, because a constant challenge that we see is that the strengths language could be conflicted with the dictionary meaning of words.

Pankaj Singh:
[23:55] For example, Competition could be misunderstood. Context is something, you know, people would often say that somebody requires context, whereas Context means somebody who, you know, learned a lot from what has happened to the past. So we cautiously avoided these mistakes to explain the word in the right context and, more important, to appeal to the individual that, How does this become a part of their own behavior? And then taking a cue from some of the example that I have cited that when we did the group session, you know, people were just marveled, in terms of not knowing the differences but the value those differences provided to the team. So thereafter, you know, it has been much more easier. And what happens is, when you, when you are able to convince people with a Strategic theme in terms of the scientific correctness of a tool and how it works, then it becomes quite easy, because then they self-propagate because they have experiences in terms of the validity about how it works, and the ball kept on rolling.

Radhika Mehta:
[24:56] So I just like to add to that, that currently from the group, we actually have a place where leaders are actually now showcasing their reports with their teams. It's almost like they're celebrating who they are. So it's great to have leaders talk about, Hey, probably I don't have this strength. I may not have a Strategic, but I do have the Relationship themes that I lead with. So what does the team have that can contribute to the leader as well? So it's such a refreshing and a fresh perspective where there's a safe space where leaders can be their authentic selves and speak to their teams about who they are. So I think the mindset is very, very open and a shared mindset about strengths.

Deepanjan Deb:
[25:39] Wonderful. Jim, before I move on to the next set of things that we want to discuss, your thoughts around, because you have seen organizations from across spectrum, right, from financial sectors to technology to hospitality to everything. And you've seen that manifest globally. Your thoughts around this very, very important aspect where the leadership plays a very critical role in allowing a philosophy to flow through the organization.

Jim Collison:
[26:11] Yeah, well, certainly, I mean, we see it globally when the leaders embrace it and display it and use it, right? And the, both with each other, which I don't think we talk enough about. Oftentimes, we think of it from leadership downstream, where often strengths coaching, strengths awareness among teams of managers can be very, very important. Oftentimes, teams of managers are very competitive, right? They're competing against each other for those next senior roles, right? And so that can cause divisions. And so it's great to hear in your environment that that's working as those managers are working together, because they can need, they, sometimes managers feel like they're on an island. They're out there all by themselves. They're doing this by themselves. And so, so great job in getting the managers and the leaders to embrace this as well.

Deepanjan Deb:
[27:09] Wonderful. So, you know, just for our audience and a global audience as well, so IDFC First Bank is one of those new-age organizations or banks in India, which has, you know, we'll hear more from Pankaj and Radhika on this aspect. You know, it's, you, you are in a way different from many of the traditional banking organizations. You have focused around technology. You have, you know, it's, it's a new-age, fast-paced bank, right. How do you think that, you know, in especially the banking space itself is so, you know, competitive, fast-paced. How have you seen this science, this self-awareness — let me, let me just remove the word "strengths" for a bit and talk about self-awareness. How do you think self-awareness through the strengths-based approach helped you manage this changing dynamics?

Deepanjan Deb:
[28:00] And one aspect I'd like to bring about is when we talk about strengths, we usually talk about help you to become the best version of themselves. And by that, we mean that how do you kind of maximize your efficiency in the role that you are in? I was recently reading a beautiful book, which was by the world chess champion, Garry Kasparov. It's called Deep Thinking. He wrote a very, very interesting line there, and I would use that line to get your thoughts around the fact that he says that, when you start focusing on your strengths, you get peak performance. But when you also start improving your weakness, which is kind of our, you know, if you look at the report, you also have the, you know, it's important you also look at the Bottom 5, or you also tend to get the greatest gains, right. And Kasparov was not talking the Gallup language; he was generally talking the philosophical construct, which is eventually the Gallup language. So your thoughts on this, especially contextualizing with the bank environment that you are in?

Pankaj Singh:
[29:12] I think that quote was really helpful, Deepanjan. So I will say that, OK, while many things are changing, but two major differences that I see, you know, post this trend-based intervention is that, first of all, you know, whenever we talk to people, they are always fixated on the weakness in terms of that, OK, tell me what I need to improve upon, you know, and they hardly spend — if you're having a half an hour conversation, they will patiently listen for the 5, 10 minutes when I'm talking about the strength, but they say, "Give me a pill which is going to improve my weakness." So this has, this has changed drastically in the organization. I think now today, even if you bump up to any of our managers, you know, they are going to say that OK, your strengths are good enough to take you where you are — where, from where you are to wherever you want to be. So that's, that's a significant change. People at, you know, at a mid-age or a senior age are not trying to change themselves but trying to, you know, leverage the most, in terms of what they have to offer. Because that thing has been settled, you know, in terms of that you're good enough with your strengths, and you can achieve most of the thing.

Pankaj Singh:
[30:20] The second thing, which is again, something which is really helping us, is the is the bottom strength you're talking about, but I have seen, and especially at the leadership level, is the overuse of strength, which causes friction. So there needs to be some amount of consciousness that, OK, and this is taking from the discussion that we had with senior team member also that there is a way in which you operate, and is that the only way to go forward? When I was talking about my example of Ideation, I was thinking that I am doing the best what is required for the project by changing it to whatever comes to my mind. But if I do it too often, how does it impact the ecosystem? Now that's very once. People who are Analytical always want to have asking for proof — that give me the proof, what it is. But sometimes, and when you're talking about that we are a new-age bank. We are trying to do something which has never been done by anywhere else, so you might not have enough proof. You might not have an overwhelming evidence, in terms of this is going to change the world, but you need to have a belief that OK, what you're doing is right, and you have to, you know, go to that part.

Pankaj Singh:
[31:25] So especially in our domain, we don't benchmark, you know, I mean, of course, we take the learning from what's happening around, but the work that is happening out here is not something which you see around, so, in terms of this is not necessarily how the top banks operate; this is not necessarily, you know, how the global banks operate, but we know where do we want to be. And hence, it gives a lot of confidence that, OK, we should have a strategy which is going to suit our bank rather than taking the best of what's working elsewhere and then copying it for us. So these things, you know, the conversation, the appeal is now far more than what was there in the past. So I think that that, I see, is a, is a significant change.

Deepanjan Deb:
[32:14] Sorry, I was muted, So Radhika, any thoughts to add to what Pankaj said, you know?

Radhika Mehta:
[32:19] Yeah. Just, just, you know, when we do the team grid with the senior management team, I think one of the strengths or talents that probably is the least that shows up is Context. So now that we have a better awareness that probably as a, as a leadership group, we need to look behind or we need to reference the past, just with the sheer awareness that Context may be a lesser talent for us. Are there any ways that, you know, the team can use, so that they look behind, they analyze what has gone by? So there's an awareness that has come about, about, what we are great at? And whatever we are not, probably, what are some of our dominant strengths that we can use to bridge that gap? So I think there's a shared awareness, and that's really helped us a lot.

Deepanjan Deb:
[33:01] Wonderful. Jim, just on a lightest, lighter note, you know, Radhika mentioned about Context. So Context has been my No 1. theme, like, it's my No. 1 talent theme. And the great Dean Jones, as I like to call him, once said that, DD, you can be a global ambassador of Context. So Context is something which is, which is there — when I got coached, when I got coached, yeah, and when I got coached for the first time by a very, very senior Gallup expert, I asked her, "Can I remove Context from my life?" Because everyone was saying, "Move on; you have to move on." But then I realized, and then she laughed, and said, "No, you cannot," right. But the whole thing is that you have to, you know that you it is with you; you know how to be with it in a better way, right. You know, don't repeat your mistakes, you know; use the past to construct the future.

Deepanjan Deb:
[33:48] So, you know, I can absolutely understand at a personal level what you mean. The good thing about creating sustainability is the fact that you alone cannot do it, which is why, Jim, and they have done a brilliant job in creating a pool of Certified Coaches to ensure that this gets dissipated across, across the organization. So, you know, how are these coaches working, and what, you know, and, and, and how do you find this path going ahead? You know? Would want to hear more from you around this.

Radhika Mehta:
[34:20] Sure. So I think one of our core strategy was to also have internal capability, capability built within our team, so that there's an ease of conversation. There are certain positive language being used to describe the individual differences. The term we use is "strengths catalysts" rather than "coaches," because we kind of want these individuals or these pool of people to be these catalysts who are creating a strengths-based movement across the organization. So what we do is these strengths catalysts come together very often, sharing their success stories, sharing their challenges. So there is a sort of a learning together and from each other. We also have an experienced coach diverse groups of employees, right, from top management to the young management trainees. So they have a broad spectrum of experiences. They also do individual sessions and group sessions, which also helps them moderate and modify their style to the group they're talking about. Very often, we have external Gallup people coming in, Gallup experts coming in and giving them perspectives on what are the best practices around strengths.

Radhika Mehta:
[35:30] I think one of the key things that, you know, because our teams are involved in it, is it's also been a life-enriching experience for each one of them as well, because they kind of have a much better appreciation of who they are, and why do they approach things in a particular manner. And that's really been a revelation for them. And now they can actually zoom in into their strengths and really excel at their roles. So the strengths catalyst role for us has absolutely worked brilliantly. And there's a lot of hard work that they are doing, a lot of constant study, because as we are going deeper into this strengths-based philosophy, you know, just moving beyond the definitions, making sure that the definitions don't become labels, and just having this ease of conversation, you know, you know, somebody who is, you know, initially think, oh, the person takes too much time to answer is now using the word saying, "Probably the Deliberative is required for him to think through things." So there's such a ease of conversation that's happening. And the strengths catalysts are playing a big role for all of us in doing this for the bank.

Deepanjan Deb:
[36:40] "Catalyst" is a very nice term to use. Jim, you have been with Certified Coaches since Gallup started certifying coaches, right? So what are your thoughts on hearing this?

Jim Collison:
[36:53] Yeah, I like the word "catalyst." Hey, whatever gets the work done, like, it doesn't, you know, we sometimes use the words "champion," right, "strengths champion" in there. But it's a great, I love the idea of, you have a catalyst. And I've used the word "accelerant" before, an accelerator — someone who can help people, when added to it, It helps them go faster, right? Or it helps them learn faster. So I love that you've chose that term as your term, and that you're using it in a way that makes sense in what you're doing. So I appreciate that. I love the term. Love it.

Deepanjan Deb:
[37:33] This has been the Aha! moment for me in this discussion today, to hear this term "catalyst." Although with, Pankaj, Radhika, you both talked about it when we were having the initial round of conversation. But one thing that you know we've seen, at least I have seen manifested for me individually, also to, you know, having worked with so many clients is the fact that strengths helps you appreciate the differences and also makes one accept that I am unique. That is the fundamental thing it does, right. And one of the offshoots is that it helps in reducing conflicts at a team level or even at understanding individuals because you know that he or she is doing this because he or she is that way, wired that way. Your thoughts around you know this, this whole thing around making teamwork better through resolution of conflicts by understanding each other — just, you know, a brief around if you want to share something, although you've kind of touched upon it at the beginning, but I just wanted to just hear specifically on this.

Pankaj Singh:
[38:50] I think yeah, like you said, we are ... , but just to give another example, many times you know there's a tendency that the manager views the team in terms of somebody who can accomplish tasks, you know, so that, that's my only criteria. If, if I move from senior to a middle manager team, the team is supposed to deliver tasks, and whoever delivered the task you know is the winner kind of a thing. Now, while the manager would expect that everyone delivered to the best of their potential, he doesn't have a tool or a language to talk to them. So what Gallup does or StrengthsFinder does is provide them a common language, in terms of how do you converse people to deliver their best? Because you, you need to have you know a dictionary which is not only appealing to the manager but is also being understanding from the team member's side.

Pankaj Singh:
[39:44] So, so that's, that's where you know we have seen that you know an offshoot of, of using this Gallup approach is to have a common language across the organization. So now when we have set of people, you know, like I started, that where we are very cautious initially to ensure that people understand the Gallup meaning and not the dictionary meaning, but these words are used a lot more today in everyday conversation. And that, itself, you know, reduces a lot of friction that could have happened in absence of it.

Deepanjan Deb:
[40:17] Thank you. This was very, very nice to hear. And that brings me to the you know follow-up question on this is that, when we talk about managers, you know, nowadays what is happening is that people are expecting their managers to do beyond what they are, like they're expecting them to be, play the role of a mentor or a coach, right? And, and which is why you know managers are not just micromanagers. And this happens when you kind of start transitioning, you know, managers to play the role beyond the obvious and, and ensure that they can play the role of a mentor. The other important aspect that is seen across organizations now is that — and we hear this from clients across — is that managers find it challenging to manage the younger generation people as well, because their demands are so much different from what it is it used to be, right? How, how do you think, you know, your managers at IDFC First Bank equipped with the kind of understanding of the strengths-based philosophy are transitioning into playing the role of mentors or coaches?

Pankaj Singh:
[41:28] I think what you said is absolutely right, Deepanjan, and while I address a group, be it small or big, I have been seeing, we are into year 2025. I think all of us have lived a generation where "19" used to be constant in the calendar, and you have to select the age, which is, you know, anything from '70s to 1999. Now, the series itself has changed; now there's a 20 series also along with the 19 series, and the people who are born in 2000 and they are into workforce in 2025, and they are, they have been brought up in a very different environment. These are very confident lot. Hence, the old-school managerial stuff don't work for them. And this, I'm talking from my personal experience: Teams which do well in terms of mentoring this young lot of people Is the team where the manager is not seen as a manager but somebody whom, whom is working along with these team members. They don't want a supervisor who is telling them what time to come, what time to go and all those things, but somebody who can give the meaning to what is expected of them at work.

Pankaj Singh:
[42:29] What has also changed is manager needs to gain the respect; just because of the supervisory hierarchy, somebody is not going to take orders from you. And what this StrengthsFinder does is you know, it, first of all it makes you patient from the demanding Gen Z that has been you know part of your team. So you, you appreciate that OK, he has a specific needs that to be delivered to him, and these need to be delivered to the individual, not to the group. And hence, you know, rather than having that OK, you know, you have one or two interaction and gain acceptance, the manager have to really work hard — first of all to show his competence, but more to show that OK, what is the value that he can provide to the individual at work?

Pankaj Singh:
[43:11] And that can't be limited to the task which is getting accomplished by the team member, is to tell them what's in it for the individual, is to tell them that what they are good at; it's also to guide them in terms of what they need to be really working upon. So the conversation itself has moved from you know, somebody who is a winner, somebody who is completing the task, to almost being you know, friendly with this young lot of people because bossing around not only don't work; it fires back. It fires back. So I think it gives a cushion in terms of how this entire environment is operating with the youngsters in the team and people who are vintage. Because whatever they have learned in the past about the manager experience doesn't necessarily work with this lot of people. And, and I'm actually quite happy; personally, I don't feel all the managerial way of doing work in the past was the best way to do work. It is making it challenging for the manager, but I think it's also helping them to reflect that, hence, I need to keep on sharpening my managerial skill at all point of time.

Deepanjan Deb:
[44:17] This is very, very deep, and it's so deep that I intend to, we intend to, we intend to go on for hours, but we have only a few minutes. Jim, I have a few questions remaining, but are we good on time? Can we have a few?

Jim Collison:
[44:30] Yeah, we have a few more minutes. Let me add to this, though. Since the pandemic, I have focused, or a lot of the things I've heard about what you were just talking about is the new workforce way of thinking. And I've really thought of that through a U.S. lens. I kind of thought like, yeah, that's the United States. Yes, that's the way it's working. Yeah, you know, and I hadn't really thought about the change there in India that's happening as well in that workforce change. I did a lot of recruiting back in the 20-teens. I did a lot of recruiting out of India, hired a lot of folks to work here in the United States. But I haven't done that in 10 years. I love to hear the language coming from you that, you know, we have a whole list of things, as we think about the Gen Z generation, the millennials and the Gen Z and what they expect. I didn't, I was, I'll be honest with you, I was a little, I was a little taken aback like, Oh, you guys, you guys are seeing that too. Which is super cool to see that happen. We say it's global; I haven't really talked about it much globally. So thanks for bringing that up and sharing that as well.

Pankaj Singh:
[45:45] Yeah. I think we are watching the same Netflix and Amazon Prime. And both in U.S. and India, the drama which I often watch is the Korean drama, not the U.S. drama or the Indian drama. So that's how globalized the world is becoming.

Deepanjan Deb:
[46:00] Absolutely. A couple of questions from my end, you know, and this is to both of you together, because it's almost three years that, you know, you have been treading on this path, and we are kind of curating — to use Pankaj's language, right? He has Ideation, and the route can change at any point of time, how it evolves. With the wisdom of hindsight, is there anything that you feel that you could have done differently to accelerate the journey or you feel that this path has been wonderful as it is?

Radhika Mehta:
[46:40] So I think, like I said, probably coming from my Activator, I would have liked to get started much earlier and given us more traction. But probably getting the senior management group up early, because the kind of momentum that these guys have brought in by being on board has just been fabulous. So that would be one thing. Probably also creating more strengths catalysts apart, only not in the HR group, but also outside in the business teams. I think these were probably two things that would have probably strengthened it. I wouldn't say — it's a learning, but we are on that path. So there are plans of having many more business teams involved. We also want to incorporate strengths into key value touchpoints into an employee's journey. So we're doing a lot of things around those. And yeah, I think I'm comfortable with where we started. And that's given really a good pushing for us to now — or a trampoline, if I may want to use the word to now then jump-start and kick-start many more things. So it's been a great ride for us.

Deepanjan Deb:
[47:46] Lovely. So Jim, you can share more of your insights on this, but usually what we've seen across many, many organizations is generally a feeling that people, especially, people have work to do, right. People should not feel that I have been given something more to do. Where IDFC First Bank is different is the fact that I have seen is that they use the StrengthsFinder as an enhancement to what they are doing. So just, there's generally a feeling, I have been asked to do an assignment. The moment this feeling is there, rather than you feel that this, this assignment will help me become better at my work. That is when we, we know that we are in the right path, right. And, and I must you know congratulate both of them to ensure that they have enabled this feeling within the organization, which is why whatever they are doing is working — or the process is working in the right way. Your thoughts on this before I ask my final question to them?

Jim Collison:
[49:00] My thoughts on that?

Deepanjan Deb:
[49:01] Yes.

Jim Collison:
[49:02] I think you said it pretty well. I think we'll leave it. You give me too much credit on that one. But I think you say it well.

Deepanjan Deb:
[49:12] Perfect. So last question from my end, before we kind of hand it over to Jim for his final thoughts. And if we have any questions from anyone in the audience, we'll take it. You know, in this changing world, you know, how do you anchor change? And it's very, very important, it's real, right? Real — and what do you anchor change on, and, and, and how has strengths helped in it or, you know, how do you think strengths can help it, help it?

Pankaj Singh:
[49:39] I think it's, it's quite important because whatever we have talked about, the experience that we have on this strengths-based approach has been exhilarating. We hear a great feedback that what is the impact that it is doing at the organization level. So you know we have various platforms and tool available where we gauge employee feedback. These are not employee surveys, but you know survey which are defined for a particular you know outcome. So we have a mechanism, probably we are you know one of the few organizations in India where the manager, the team member rates the manager you know. And we have seen that wherever we have managers who are using this strengths-based approach, they have been rated very high in terms of you know taking an effort to developing the team, sharing the context with the team member vis-a-vis a group which has not been part of this strengths journey.

Pankaj Singh:
[50:34] What is also giving us this confidence is wherever we have seen managers scoring low and when we have made them part of the strengths journey, we see a immediate uptake, in terms of the follow-up survey that has happened. Apart from this, you know, we have this, you know, milestone-based survey which has been rolled across to all employees, and we have asked a few questions in terms of, without saying that we are measuring on Gallup, but certain Gallup behaviors, you know, for people who have undergone a training or a coaching journey. And we see a very enthusiastic response from the team member too, that they see visible change in terms of the manager engagement with the team. So we are constantly monitoring in terms of how is it making a difference to our organization?

Deepanjan Deb:
[51:21] Radhika, any thoughts from you to add?

Radhika Mehta:
[51:24] No, I think for us, just a sheer understanding of people, of who they are, is kind of like a change. So now people can moderate, so, like an overplay of strengths. So managers, when they get the feedback, more often than not, something that the team is giving them feedback on to change is coming from an overplay of the strengths. And then they now know what to do about it. So they can dial in or dial down, depending on the feedback that they're getting. But it's so largely linked to their strengths that managers can really have now a playbook or something that they can go back to and take the feedback in the spirit. Because it is, you're disassociating the feedback from who you are, from this is what your talents are, and here's what you may be overplaying. So I think that's been really important for mature manager behavior to take feedback as well.

Deepanjan Deb:
[52:15] Beautifully summed up, Radhika. Because feedback in spirit is what we talk about when we say that, you know, managers should be able to do the tough conversations in a nicer way. Because we encounter difficult situations at work. And one of the important things expected from managers is to have the tough conversations in a much, much more mature way. and feedback in spirit is possibly the best way that we could have ended this from my end. So it has been a pleasure, privilege to have this discussion with you. I am done with my questions, Jim, and it has been wonderful hearing from them. Over to you, if you have any questions from the group or from the audience, and then we can take it ahead.

Jim Collison:
[52:59] Yeah, I'll give the audience just a second if they want to throw their questions in chat. There's been some appreciation out there. So thank you for throwing that out as well. I'm going to ask you guys a question that necessarily wasn't on the list, but I think it's a good one: Do you think your customers notice? Do you think, like, do you think your customers notice that it's different there or people are different there? I don't know. Talk about, answer that any way you think, but is it affecting — not affecting, but is it showing through to your customers, do you think?

Pankaj Singh:
[53:33] Frankly speaking, we have not evaluated it. I think where I can give some comment is at least the stakeholders, and I'm talking about the external stakeholders, they see a difference in terms of the engagement that was there earlier versus what has been there now. So we work with a lot of partners who work very closely with us. So at least there, I see a significant change. We have still not embarked the journey where we're seeing an impact, How is it making to the customer interaction that we have?

Radhika Mehta:
[54:01] No, I think that's a great question and great food for thought for us to go back, because, like, probably the journey for us is right now in the middle. So we've started out — last year was all about welcoming people into experiencing the tool, getting into discussions. And here on onwards is where we want to now start using it for impact. So this is a great thought, Jim, that we should start seeing, How do different groups of people experience or get touched by these people? So I think, but that's great thought for us.

Jim Collison:
[54:32] We've, we've done some credit union Called to Coach episodes here with some credit unions in the U.S. And one, and I can't remember the name of it now, but one of the credit unions said they actually talk about CliftonStrengths with their customers, you know, as they're coming into the branches or they're coming into the, to the locations. There's some — and their vendors. They have, sometimes have an opportunity to have that, have those conversations. So it's just kind of interesting to me when it permeates the organization in such a way that the customers start to notice — or the vendors. In some cases, not all organizations have necessarily are customer-facing in a way where that makes sense. But do the vendors notice? All of a sudden, do we start to have some of those conversations that way? One last question before I let you go: When you think about the future, you talked a little bit about maybe what you'd do different if you could go back. But as you think ahead, any bright spots in the future that you're looking forward to?

Radhika Mehta:
[55:35] Sure. Some of the things that immediately we are doing is as people come in, as new people come into the organization, having a strengths-based onboarding for them, so that they come in embracing their strengths, as well as when they're coming into the team they're working with. So that's kind of a thing that we want them to experience. Also, at key points during an employee's life cycle, say the performance conversations, managers consciously commenting on, Did they see individuals actually display their strengths? An, an employee reflecting back and saying, Did he use his or her strength in achieving the goal that they did? So having these kind of conversations and embedding them into our people practices is going to be a journey for us in the coming couple of years, as I see the future.

Jim Collison:
[56:25] Yeah, anything else you want to add to that?

Pankaj Singh:
[56:26] No, I think I totally agree. I think one of the great hallmarks of people when they experience Gallup is it's not limited to the workplace. You know, once they understand and, you know, know the power of the tool, they pass this on to their friends. They pass this on to their family. You know, most people have taken this test for the kid which are less than 14 years old, just to get an insight in terms of what it is. So it keeps on multiplying. And that's the testimony in terms of how well the tool is resonating and how consciously people want to use it for their everyday work.

Jim Collison:
[57:02] We have some new Team Grid functionality that's available to everyone, where families could share those themes with each other and put their own family Team Grid together, which would be kind of interesting. My daughter embraced CliftonStrengths fully. As a family, she made everybody take it. I mean, you think her dad would have done that, but she put the peer pressure on them to take it, and then she put together a spreadsheet initially — and we talk about this. So you're right. It can, it can get out and make its way into some interesting spots. DD, we are out of time. Would you take a second and thank our guests for being here today?

Deepanjan Deb:
[57:40] Absolutely. We have been trying to get both of them away from their busy schedule to kind of be a host with us, and it has been wonderful to hear from them. I know we needed to document what they have been doing, you know, phenomenal work. And as always, it has been a pleasure and privilege from my end to have Pankaj and Radhika, you know, on the Gallup Called to Coach, and thank you for that

Pankaj Singh:
[58:07] Thank you, Jim. It has been a pleasure to be part of this.

Jim Collison:
[58:12] It's great to have you. I agree. Appreciate your time and your patience. We had some technical difficulties getting in here, and you could almost see your strengths working through those technical difficulties as we were doing that, right? And so appreciate that. Appreciate you. Great to hear the story. DD, thanks for bringing India back to Called to Coach. And it's been exciting to hear what's going on there. Exciting to see this happening around the world. And so I appreciate you guys being here today. So thanks for coming.

Radhika Mehta:
[58:42] Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Jim. Thank you, Deepanjan, for having us.

Deepanjan Deb:
[58:46] Thank you so much.

Jim Collison:
[58:47] You are welcome as well. Well, with that, we'll remind everyone to take full advantage of all the resources we have available inside Gallup Access. You can log in, my.gallup.com. If you're interested in coaching, master coaching, want to become a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach — we talked a little bit about that — you can contact us: coaching@gallup.com with your questions. Then stay up to date with all the future webcasts. If you're in our Facebook groups or our LinkedIn groups, you can stay up to date with those as well. And for those who joined us — we had a, we had almost 20 join us today — thanks for coming out in the audience. We saw some great comments; here, I'll throw those up really fast. So some comments coming in, some comments of thanks. Appreciate that. Some claps out there. Appreciate you guys coming out as well and being a part of the program. And so, we, we, I think with that, we'll just say, Goodbye, everybody.

Pankaj Singh's Top 5 CliftonStrengths are Ideation, Analytical, Relator, Learner and Input.

Radhika Mehta's Top 5 CliftonStrengths are Focus, Activator, Significance, Strategic and Communication.