- What does it mean to be a great leader?
- How can leaders measure their own effectiveness?
- What are the 4 Needs of Followers, and what can leaders do to meet them in changing times?
Below are audio and video plus a transcript of the conversation, including time stamps.
"There's a lot of confusion about what it means to be a leader." So says Dr. Brian Brim, Senior Practice Consultant at Gallup. Drawing on his 32 years of experience with Gallup research on strengths, Brian defines true leadership, and then draws out the implications of that definition for leaders who aspire to greater effectiveness in their roles. How can you as a leader measure how you're doing, and how does team engagement play into that assessment? Why is building trust among your team members pivotal in times of uncertainty and change? And what strategies can managers employ to ensure team members know what's expected of them? Join us for a half-hour of incisive insights.
I really see [leaders] as people that are working really hard to be the best version of themselves, in order to bring out the best in the people that they lead.Brian Brim, 3:08
What's become incredibly clear is that, in order for us to connect with people emotionally, we have to connect with people as human beings.Brian Brim, 5:29
If I'm not the person that comes to mind when people think about the best leader, and I'm a leader, then I haven't reached the pinnacle of my leadership.Brian Brim, 15:43
Jim Collison 0:00
I am Jim Collison, and welcome to the CliftonStrengths podcast. On this podcast, we'll be covering topics such as wellbeing, teamwork, professional development and more. Now enjoy this episode. This episode was previously recorded on LinkedIn Live.
Meet Our Guest on This Episode
Jim Collison 0:17
I'm here with Dr. Brian Brim today. We're excited to bring this event to you on leadership. Brian, welcome!
Brian Brim 0:25
Thank you so much, Jim. Great to see you.
Jim Collison 0:27
We have some folks coming in watching us live. Love to have you put your Top 5 there in the chat, and we'll display those on screen. Or, since we're talking about leadership today, we'd really love to hear like which theme do you lead with when you're leading? That'd be kind of fun as well. You can drop those in chat. Brian, while they're doing that, let's get to know you a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background -- I think you've been at Gallup forever. So give us some, a little bit of your background and a little bit about you.
Brian Brim 0:52
Yeah, I have been at Gallup forever. I'm right at 32 years as of, I think, tomorrow, so, and prior to that I was, interestingly, I worked at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln while going to school there for an organization that one of our founding fathers, Don Clifton, had started. So I was exposed to the strengths-based approach, talent-based selection, a lot of that really interesting work, and even exposed to, you know, some of the early strengths-based leadership philosophy. So been around the stuff for a very long time. And I'm currently, I've been at Gallup very long time working now as a strategic adviser for clients. And I spend all my time working directly with clients -- well, I shouldn't say that; there's some time I do this stuff and do some research and writing that type of thing.
Jim Collison 1:43
And what have you written for us. You've written, you've contributed and written a little bit. What have you written for us?
Brian Brim 1:47
Yeah, I've contributed to a lot of our early books, from First, Break All the Rules to Strengths Based Leadership, etc. And then I authored Strengths Based Selling. And then I've also contributed 30, to 40, 50 articles to the news.gallup.com. So a lot of stuff floating around out there.
What Does It Mean to Be a Leader?
Jim Collison 2:06
Great to have you. If you're listening live, and you're, you can get into the chat, folks are dropping their Top 5 in there, and we're able to display those on screen. If you'd also like to post maybe a theme that you use a lot -- since we're talking about leadership today -- a theme that you use when you're leading. We'd love to hear from you on that as well. Let's talk a little bit about What does it mean to be a leader? Brian, as we look at this, this topic, let's set that definition. What does it really mean to be a leader?
Brian Brim 2:42
Yeah, I think there's a lot of confusion about what it means to be a leader. Just because you have a positional title, as I think about the impact that we've had in the work we do around strengths and engagement, etc., I think what we've been able to do is help leaders think differently about leadership. And so as I look at leaders, and I look at kind of the best leaders I've ever worked with, that, that's kind of helped me define what leadership is. I really see them as, as people that are working really hard to be the best version of themselves, in order to bring out the best in the people that they lead.
Brian Brim 3:18
And ultimately, what our early research that we did around the impact of creating a highly engaged culture, that creates sustainable high performance for an organization. So it's really, I always go back to sustainable high performance is the ultimate goal of great leadership. And you only get there if you are able to lead in a way that's highly engaging and in a way that people feel valued, they feel involved. So I think that's kind of the core of what I look at as great leadership.
A Manager's Influence
Jim Collison 3:55
Getting a lot of great comments coming in through the chat room. I encourage you to do that as well -- your Top 5 and maybe what you're leading with. Brian, we've done a lot of work on It's the Manager, not only a book, but kind of an idea, as we think about the effect and the -- the affect and effect that managers have on teams. Can you talk a little bit about just an overview of the, of the influence that a manager or a leader has with a team?
Brian Brim 4:24
Yeah, it's super, super powerful. I think that, you know, what we always have to remember is when you look at some of the fascinating research out there about our decision-making as human beings and, and the influence that emotions have on our decision-making process, you know, there's some interesting data out there related to some of the work that Danny Kahneman did, who was the first psychologist to win the Nobel Prize in economics. And talking about things like that 70% of decision-making is, is emotional, with about 30% of it being rational. And that's a fascinating way to look at what it is that we're, we're being asked to deal with every day, as we think about what leadership looks like.
Brian Brim 5:14
So if we are able to truly understand the influence that that has, then it becomes incredibly difficult for us to connect with our people in a way that they can have that sustainable impact that that we need. And so I think that what's become incredibly clear is that, in order for us to connect with people emotionally, we have to connect with people as human beings. And so, yes, there's some interesting processes and systems and things like that out there that allow us to have our voices be heard and things like that. But that real connection about, How am I doing today? How have things changed this week? What do I need to do to adjust in my role to succeed? What does success look like in my role? How do I feel valued in that role? How do I feel appreciated in that role? All those complexities, those are only going to be able to make sense if we're having conversations.
Brian Brim 6:11
And so that is the leader, that is the manager, that is the weekly mean -- meaningful conversations that have become so clear in the work that we've done. So that role is amazingly important, and one that we can't overlook. And we often say it's a decision, as you think about who you're going to put in charge of the human beings in your organization day to day, it's probably the most important decision you're making day to day. So I think that that It's the Manager book really pointed out a lot of those core elements to what it means to lead and manage successfully.
Managers and Self-Assessment: Measuring Your Effectiveness
Jim Collison 6:47
Lots of great Top 5 and leading with coming in through the chat room. If you want to drop us questions as we move along in this topic, just put a "Q" in front of them so they're a little easier for me to find. The chat room is moving rather quickly; we have over 1,000 who are joining us today. And so we'll try and get to those. Brian, you mentioned this a second ago, but as a leader, is there some ways I can do some self-, like, before I think about improving, I need to be able to measure, like, How am I doing today? Are there some things I could do as a leader or even a leader of leaders to help kind of assess, Where I am, where am I at today? How do we measure that -- How well am I doing?
Brian Brim 7:26
Yeah, I love, by the way, all the strengths showing up in the chat. One thing I didn't say is that being around Gallup as long as I've been around, I have to say that Don Clifton was someone who obviously I had as a mentor. I worked closely with Don; I was around when he invented this thing. And I was asked to help him release it to the world. I was in charge of our global client education at the time. And I bring that up, because one of the things that was so powerful about how Don looked at people was that he really understood the critical importance of understanding the uniqueness of human beings. I remember an early conversation I had when he first came up with some of the results. And I said something to him like, "Wow, there's 34 of these things" -- referring to the 34 themes. And he said -- without even missing a beat -- he said, "Yeah, I know, it's not nearly enough." And so he was talking about the, the incredible uniqueness of people.
Brian Brim 8:27
And so, as you think about knowing yourself as a leader, as you think about, "How do I measure how I'm doing?" one of the things that is so incredibly important about this is strengths, and CliftonStrengths, allows you to get much more granular about how you're showing up in the world each day. It helps you get much more intentional about how you're applying the best of who you are, hopefully the best of who you are, to the world each day. One of the coaching steps that I use with executives is talking about what is it that you are looking back on that you would have done the same and that you could have applied your strengths to, to differently, in order to lead differently and more successfully.
Brian Brim 9:13
So we use, I use the concept of highlight reels -- that every Friday, sitting down with a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, and looking back at your week, looking back at your discussions, looking back at the reality of your world, how'd you show up in meetings? How'd you communicate? Look at some of your emails. Consider the ways that you recognized, or didn't, the people on your team. Think about how you motivated, or didn't, the people on your team. But take a hard look each week, because time flies by, and then think about, What would I have done differently? And how could I have done it differently, more effectively through my strengths? What would I do the same? What, what should I feel proud about, where I saw my strengths really, really staying in that "help zone," as we say, right. So I think that that's probably one of the most straightforward.
Brian Brim 10:03
And then another one is, watch your engagement data. So if I'm, as a leader, doing a great job of helping my people feel valued, and I'm inspiring them, I'm involving them, my engagement data is going to move in the right direction. So that's how, you know, I coach a lot of leaders around it. And frankly, we also do measurement around leadership 360 work. So helping them look at them, themselves over time, and then utilizing their strengths in order to think differently about how they're showing up, in order to build those stronger kind of connections with their people that, that turn into that sustainable performance again.
Jim Collison 10:44
Brian, I think sometimes as leaders, we think we have to have perfect scores. You were talking about the engagement piece, and we have to have perfect scores. Can I still be an effective manager and not be perfect in some of those measurements? Can you talk a little bit about that?
Brian Brim 10:59
I don't know if I've ever met a perfect one anyway, right? I think you, you have to take into account that ultimately, what you're trying to do is really stabilize engagement. There's always going to be some, some ups and downs, based on a lot of different factors. And there's a lot of things that change in our organization. But I do think you want to set a high bar around engagement, and realize that, you know, if I can -- by the way, what we'll often see is, if I hit a very high bar in engagement, a little bit of a decline is not abnormal, right? Because I'm at such a high, high level.
Brian Brim 11:35
But I do think that there's other factors that you want to, want to look at and keep in mind, and everything from other types of business outcomes. So when you think about success as a leader, I do need to think, think about things like safety, perhaps, or look at productivity numbers, performance numbers, whatever it might be. So we look at the holistic picture when we, when we help organizations think about, say, a balanced scorecard of a leader, we're looking at all those factors. Because the other thing about it is that I think that people get a little confused when we say "engagement." Sometimes they think that we're talking about, "Well, that's the coddling side of leadership. And that's all the warm and fuzzy stuff."
A Simple Question About Success
Brian Brim 12:20
What's really fascinating is, I would challenge everybody out there to think about a simple question. And that is, you know, What's, what's a descriptor that comes to mind when you think about the best leader you ever worked for? I've asked that question, as you can imagine, in the years I've been here, thousands of times. Not once -- not one time -- zero times have I, have I heard somebody say, "They coddled me." Not one time. You know what they said? They said things like, "They challenged me." "They, they heard me." "They valued me." "They held me accountable." "They helped me know what success looks like. And so when you think about all these other factors, I always think it's very important to understand that engagement, it doesn't mean your leader doesn't care. But they're the type of leader that really is going to help you become, like I said, that best version of self. And so I think there's a lot that rolls into what leadership success looks like.
The Role of Emotional Intelligence in Leadership
Jim Collison 13:19
I think that's, that's, that's valuable right there. That's worth the price of admission today, as we think about those descriptive words. What are, what are -- those folks that I'm leading, what are they saying about me? I mean, I think that's actually a measure too: If they were to describe my leadership in 3 words, what would those 3 words be? A great, right, a good measurement of that. Marisol asks a great question out in the chat. I think it's a good time to bring it in. And it's a real popular topic, but How does emotional intelligence play -- we see that word a lot now out there. Can you talk a little bit about how you see emotional intelligence playing into this?
Brian Brim 13:55
I really, yeah, I think you're right, Marisol. We, it's a, it's one of those things that I've seen very much hand in hand with, with our work around engagement, our work around strengths. Really, emotional intelligence, to me, is, is really that awareness of the impact I have on others. And it really is being aware of the fact that emotions play such an incredible role in, in leading effectively. That we don't get just the rational side of human beings who show up. And I think that it's also really understanding that even when something looks just rational, there's always emotional underpinnings.
Brian Brim 14:35
You can't -- it's impossible to separate the manner in which we relate to the world around us. It's impossible to separate the emotion out of it. And so I think that has a huge influence and I, I really even do a lot of work with clients in thinking about having them even audit their, their communication, the way that they show up in meetings, etc. Through -- and, and of course, we talk about engagement. But I think that emotional intelligence underpinning lies right in the heart of some of this work.
Brian Brim 15:07
So I think it just really is about that awareness and that sense of connection to your people in a way that they want to continue to be a part of your team. That they actually -- let's go back to that activity I mentioned, Jim. Not only what are the 3 descriptors, but we often say, "Think of the best leader you've ever worked for." At the end of that conversation, I always ask leaders, "What if I asked that other people you've worked for -- or what if I asked that of the people that work for you? Would your name be the one that comes to mind? And shouldn't it?" And, and think about that, because I think that ultimately, if I'm not the person that comes to mind when people think about the best leader, and I'm a leader, then I haven't reached the pinnacle of my leadership. So something to keep in mind.
Leading to Meet The 4 Needs of Followers
Jim Collison 15:52
I've got a simple saying that goes, "If I'm a leader, and no one's following, I'm probably not leading," right. And so a great opportunity for some self-reflection. You mentioned Don, and how great would it be -- just as a comment, how great would it be for him to be able to see this, with all these Top 5s popping up? I mean, just for him to be able to see this technology, how great that would be. One reminder, for some of you join us, we know this is a popular topic; so popular, we got a spambot to get the LinkedIn group today, and dropped a bunch of spam. Sorry, sorry about that. We tried to get some control over it early to get it done. But you have made it in; it is available in re-, this will be available as a replay as well. Brian, I want to talk a little bit about the needs of followers, because sometimes I think we think leadership -- and, and I think this ties right in in improving it, right? Because I think as we understand the needs of followers, we can be a better leader, right? So can, talk a little bit about what are they, and then let's dig in a little bit on those and how that can help us improve our leadership.
Brian Brim 16:55
You got it, you got it. And I think, you know, and even, I'll take a step back from that -- even understanding what it is that we as leaders follow, I think is even a step before that. So when you think about great leaders, and you think about, you know, Martin Luther King Jr.; you think about Mother Teresa; you think about all the great leaders, they all believed in something. Right? So they were following a belief that truly meant something to them and that they felt very strongly could, could mean something huge to the world. And I think that, so that's a first part. Because sometimes people, when we talk about needs of followers, they think, "Well, I don't want to be a follower."
Brian Brim 17:35
Well, I would challenge the idea that all great leaders have followership -- that they, that they are, and I mean, not just the people that follow them, but they're following something meaningful. Out of that research, you know, what we found is that there were 4, 4 categories. And there were different words that fell into these categories, so they mean different things to different people. But those 4 areas were trust, compassion, stability, and hope. And as a matter of fact, when I talk about having leaders audit their communication, their discussions, the way they show up, those are the -- that's the framework I use.
Brian Brim 18:12
So I have them think about, you know, Go back and look at, you know, that message you sent out to everybody yesterday. Go back and look at that newsletter that you produced, whatever it might be -- that speech you gave; the town hall -- and tell me how much trust, compassion and stability, stability and hope showed up there. And so I think those 4 areas are just such a nice framework to use to kind of test yourself as a leader to say, "Am I leading in a way that (goes back to what we were saying) creates this, this desire to follow" right? This desire to be part of something, this, this desire to be valued, and to help sustain the growth of our organization long term?
Jim Collison 18:53
Brian, when we looked at our elements of wellbeing, we saw among those 5, you know, they're kind of our 5 pillars of wellbeing, that career wellbeing really outweighs the rest of them, as far as importance goes. As we think about those needs of followers, is there one, or -- do they rank, or are they all equally important? Can you talk a little bit about that?
Brian Brim 19:15
I would say in my own work, that I think trust is, is probably the foundational one. So, for example -- the reason I say that, and they're all important, but let's just say, you know, there was some very interesting early work we did around engagement. And, you know, we saw some interesting things where you had a massively disengaged team that got a new manager, and the new manager was coming from all the right places, but he would, he or she would do all the right things, but until they gained the trust of the team, everything was looked at with a wary eye, right?
Brian Brim 19:53
And so it's trust, it's kind of like, it's kind of hard for me to feel like you really care about me, are compassionate about me, if I don't trust you, right? It's hard for me to really believe what you're saying about, that we're going to stabilize through XYZ if I don't trust you. It's hard for me to believe in the hope that you're drawing out if I don't trust you. So I do think it all starts with that, that trust. Now, the others can help you build that trust over time. So I think when you get to a certain level of trust, they'll start to buy in more. The more they start to buy in more and see that your story of stability is true or your story of hope is true or your story of compassion is true, then, of course, that trust can, can become stronger and stronger. But I do think it's, it's part of that ticket to admission, if you will.
Fostering Trust in Times of Change
Jim Collison 20:38
Ashley asks a great question. Let's blend this in with the 4 Needs of Followers, as we think -- In your opinion, with the current situation of the world and the workplace, what are the top 3 things leaders should be focused on to be a better leader? Some, some thoughts around that as we think about that. And some have called it "The Great Resignation"; I know that's happening. I'm kind of calling it, at least in my work, "The Great Migration." We have many people moving. I'm seeing in some of our groups, up to a third have changed jobs or locations or, or whatever. There's just a tremendous amount of movement. Brian, how do we become better leaders in a time when things are changing -- and not just technology, but people are changing so quickly?
Brian Brim 21:18
Yeah, the huge, the huge thing that's coming out of our research is, you know -- and I do think the 4 Needs fall right into this -- but if I don't feel like I'm part of something, if I don't feel like the work that I'm doing matters, if I don't feel like there's a purpose, and that I'm valued (let's go right back to engagement), it becomes a lot easier for me to say goodbye. And you can kind of think about that in any kind of relationship, right? And so as you think about just the top 3 things, it's things like, let's go back to that trust piece. That it's really being able to help organizations -- as a leader, I need to be honest. Even when things aren't great news, I need to be honest about the fact that here's what's happening. And I need to not change my story over and over again. Right.
Brian Brim 22:07
So I think that even in the pandemic, there's been a lot of stops and starts by leaders that said, "No, we're gonna do x by x date." And then it's like now, "No, wait a minute, we're really not now." So being more flexible right now is super important. And I think that's where the compassion piece comes in, to say, I need to understand that these are human beings and that they're dealing with this massive change and instability, and that they need some, some grace, if you will, to understand how to navigate this. And that we're going to be there as that trusted, compassionate organization that's going to help them, you know, continue to understand how to navigate this.
Brian Brim 22:49
Now then, perhaps that third step is a combination of the last two, and that is, we're going to stabilize. As things do stabilize, we're going to help you understand what that looks like. But not only are we going to stabilize, we're going to start thinking about what we're, where we're headed, and how we can be hopeful about that. So I think kind of in that order right now is what I'm seeing a lot of leaders need to lean into, in order to make some sense of things for people, because it is, it is so disruptive right now.
Managers, Organizational Expectations and Team Performance
Jim Collison 23:16
When we look at how things are, how we're moving forward and how these pieces are kind of coming together, and with all these changes that are happening, that first question in our Q12, "I know it's expected of me," right, "at work." How important is that for the leader, as we think about improving team performance? How important is it for that leader to really help those they're, they're, they're leading to understand what's expected of them?
Brian Brim 23:42
Yeah, I think that one's so interesting, because in the midst of all the changes, I think that oftentimes we need to increase the amount of alignment and clarity conversations we're having. Because "I know what's expected of me at work" is changing a lot, right? And so instead of saying, let's say that, that traditionally you have a, you work in a 30-day window. Well, you know what? You might be needing to work in a 7-day window or a 2-week window, where we're shortening the amount of conversations we're having, to create that clarity.
Brian Brim 24:20
And so even if it's, even if you don't have to change that, it's still saying, as we're considering the, the manner in which our work is unfolding, especially in the context of additional disruption and change, how many alignment and clarifying conversations are we having on a weekly basis, maybe on a daily basis? And maybe they're not conversations; maybe it's me shooting a text to Jim to say, "Hey, how's that project going? Are you still OK today?" Right. And so that, that, "I know what's expected of me at work," one of the things we see is ambiguity can be a real destructive element to engagement. And so that, "I know what's expected of me at work" is, not only just do I know what I need to do, but do I know what success looks like? Through that expectation, can you kind of get me excited about the value of the work? Can you help me understand the purpose of the work?
Brian Brim 25:10
So all those elements can be expectation. I think sometimes it's, we think it's just the to-do list. And it's so much more than that. That's a very rich item to really dig into elements like purpose, value, partnership, etc.
Jim Collison 25:24
And I think that's a great, a great question for followers to ask their managers. What does -- or their leaders -- What does success look like? Like I think that's just a simple question, like, How do I know what it is? How do I know what it looks like when I get there? And then I think, How do you improve your leadership? How do you celebrate that? Right? How do we celebrate it? Once -- can you talk about the importance in leadership? I think one of the best ways to improve your leadership is through recognition. Can you talk a little bit about the power of recognition, Brian?
Next-Level Recognition, Goal-Setting
Brian Brim 25:56
Yeah, I think that recognition sometimes gets simplified. I think what we miss is that deeper type of recognition -- things like advice, you know, what does it feel like when someone you respect comes to you and asks you for your input and your advice? That's recognition, right? That's me recognizing that you are an amazingly valuable part of my team.
Brian Brim 26:23
We also see that just that genuine recognition, the, the not, "Hey, buddy, you're so great!" kind of recognition. But instead, "I want to tell you that the conversation I saw you have with that person yesterday made a difference in that person's life." You know, it's that kind of recognition, where, again, I'm tying the recognition directly to what matters in your world -- to your value, to the purpose -- but I'm also doing it in a way that's truly valuing you as a unique individual. And I'm making sure it's genuine. And people talk about how powerful that is to have a leader that sees them and recognizes them through a lens like that.
Jim Collison 27:04
There's a question from chat about how can strengths, CliftonStrengths, be used as a tool for goal-setting? I want to add recognition to this. As we think about goal-setting and recognition, how can we lean into these themes to do both of those, Brian?
Brian Brim 27:20
Yeah, I love that question. And that's where I think the rubber hits the road. People so often say, "Well, what do I do with this strengths thing?" You know, and we've seen such massive amounts of success as clients have rolled it out. And think about goal-setting. Think about how goal-setting is different for someone who leads with, you know, Focus and Responsibility, versus someone who, let's say, leads with Strategic and Futuristic, right? That as you're thinking about what, what gets a person excited, based on -- or, better word even, energized -- based on their strengths, it's really powerful to sit down with them and talk about, What are the types of goals that we should be setting?
Brian Brim 28:02
You know, I have a leader -- we always talk about this -- a few years ago, who was always setting goals around Competition, because he was high in Competition. No one else on his team was high in Competition. So he couldn't understand why people weren't getting excited about contests and winners and things like that. Whereas there were people that were high in Belief, and they wanted to know, you know, how is this goal going to really impact the purpose and mission of the work we do? So really having those conversations is huge, and that ties right in with recognition, right. So if I'm high in Belief, and you're recognizing me for something that I know had a big impact on our organization, you're feeding that Belief. So really understanding that, that type of energy that comes from peoples' strengths, and how you do the goal-setting, recognition, all those types of things, is very, very powerful.
Jim Collison 28:50
I think that time spent reviewing those before you go into a goal-setting session to -- maybe sharpening your ax, so to speak, right, that ability to go in and kind of get, to get it sharp. We've, we've got 1 minute. I want to ask you if there's any other tips or advice, as we think about this audience. You've seen some of their questions. Anything we missed in the last minute?
Brian Brim 29:13
You know, probably one of the things that I'll just say is, Always remember your impact as a leader. Always remember your influence as a leader. I think that oftentimes, we kind of get caught up on getting the job done -- the functional job. And we forget that we always have a job as a true leader to think about the impact and influence we have. So every decision we make, the biggest tool for creating engagement is the work, and how do you do the work? And so every decision you're making as a leader does have an impact and an influence. And so your goal should make sure that you have a lot more positive impact than negative, because that's what lifts your overall organization.
Jim Collison 29:54
Good, good advice. Dr. Brian Brim joining us here, and Brian, thanks for joining us today. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming out and being a part of this. This will be in replay. So you'll be able to, if you came in late or you missed it, we did have a little spam issue in the beginning that seems to be getting popular on LinkedIn. And so if you missed those, we recorded it for you. And a reminder, the next session that we're going to do, October 26, How to Improve Teamwork in the Hybrid Workplace. Brian, I think a lot of the principles we brought in today are going to be highlighted and expanded upon, as we think about this idea of improving teamwork in the hybrid -- and fluid, right. I mean, we know, it's not just leaders that are changing. We've got everybody changing in this hybrid work space. And so we want to thank you for joining us today. Again, Brian. Thanks for coming out. Appreciate it.
Brian Brim 30:41
Thank you, Jim.
Jim Collison 30:42
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the CliftonStrengths Podcast. Make sure you like and subscribe wherever you listen, so you never miss an episode. And if you're really enjoying this podcast, please leave a review. This helps us promote strengths globally.
Brian Brim's Top 5 CliftonStrengths are Futuristic, Maximizer, Strategic, Relator and Achiever.
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